Not sure if i'll ever rewild

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance Rewilding Mind & Heart
#21

willem touched on this (going back to the first couple posts).
10,000 years of civilized conditioning vs. billions of years of evolution. we just need to put ourselves in a place where our instincts and genes can take over, break through the strangle hold of our insanity.
also i believe none of us can truly rewild until civilization exists no more. we are all part of one system, it doesnt matter where you are, or who you are with. the few remaining indigenous tribes on this earth are still influenced by civilized lifeway. as long as civilization is on this planet we can never be fully wild. luckily i believe within my lifetime it will collapse, and once again i can be wild.

a pleasant thought i often have is of the generations that come after us, of the children who will grow up not knowing what a computer is or a refrigerator, or what it means to be inside. kids who will never see a mowed lawn or a polluted lake. our work now will pave the way for balance to once again be the way of life.

#22

Tree whisperer- what are your thoughts on all the remnants of civilization that will be around, the metal and plastic and cement? Will they cease to carry civilized power once the system is collapsed and will we think of them as wild materials? If we use parts of what was once a refrigerator and a computer to support an uncivilized lifestyle is that okay? Or should we take it upon ourselves to destroy and return to the earth any remnants that might make rebuliding civilization all to easy?

#23

I’ll throw my $0.02 into the thread.

The artifacts of civilization will not disappear too quickly. They will linger for a long time before they get swallowed back into the earth. I think we will find new ways to make use of the things we find useful as rewilded people. Just take a look at Michael Green’s Afterculture for a sample of the possibilities.

I don’t think living ferally necessarily requires that we do everything primitively. I want to know how to do things primitively as much as possible because you can find primitive resources more easily than other things. But that doesn’t mean I won’t consider the artifacts left over from civilization as resources as well.

Maybe I can make a simple wind generator from found materials to run some electronic items. Maybe I can make my own biodiesel or use wood-gas to power a car to go find my family member and bring them back to my tribe–or to expedite trade between other tribes.

I don’t think technology itself contains any evil. Digging sticks, flintknapping, making cordage, bows and atlatls–these all exemplify technology. The real question lies in what we choose to do with the technology. Do we rape the earth, kill our non-human neighbors, deplete the land, and pollute the air and water? Or do we find simpler, more balanced ways to use the knowledge we have?

I think even my son’s children will know what the terms “refrigerator” and “computer” refer to, but they will think of them in a different light. Maybe the terms will feel as distant and unexperienced as “arrowhead” and “fire drill” seem to kids today–something they may have heard of but have no knowledge of. Or maybe we will still use these items but in different ways. Maybe we will use old refrigerators as “insulator boxes” to keep things warm. Maybe printed circuit boards will turn into jewelry–we will melt the copper of them to make decorative plating.

I don’t think these things will disappear, I think they will get transformed. I think even the junk of civilization will go feral because we will think of new ways to use the resources at hand.

#24
High five to my fellow hermits and social phobes.

I see no sense in celebrating any phobia. Anyone here actually proud of their cowardice?

[glow=red,2,300]High five denied.[/glow]

Let’s address reclusion, trying to burrow as far as possible into the whys hows and what fors.

I have discerned 3 main types of hermits.

  1. The Wounded.

    occasionally A wounded animal will seek a soft and shady spot by
    a source of water and chew grasses and allow their bodily
    processes to gradually knit the damage back to form.

  2. The Fearful.

    Given the society we grew up in… blah blah blah… It’s natural to
    develop fears. Sometimes these fears cripple a person the point
    where they cannot interact with those they perceive as threats.
    Sometimes every human appears a threat regardless of character
    and intent.

  3. The Collector.

    The first example I can think of would be Joseph Campbell,
    spending five years in a cabin in the woods reading 8 hours
    a day, amassing knowledge… He eventually returned to society
    to share his treasures. Quite the eccentric, I remember he was
    reluctant to marry because he knew it would cut into his reading.

[i]What reasons would someone have for planning to remain removed from societal interaction indefinitely?

How would this benefit the person? How would this benefit anyone?

How would this hinder the person?

Does the hermit cheat the rest of the community by denying them the full worth of their gifts? Does this behavior show a lack of compassion? Is the life of the hermit the apex of self-centered and apathetic lifestyles?[/i]

Any thoughts?

#25

I humbly submit that I’ve seen one variety of hermit/recluse that an outsider could mistakenly place into any three of your categories, but which doesn’t really belong in any of them.

4) The Canary

[left][center]This gentle soul resists civilized acculturation to the extent that they retreat from it…the modern world feels too loud, too busy, too colorful, too violent, in comparison to the natural setting. In the urban landscape this creature will seek quiet spaces…spaces such as their personal dwelling, libraries, unused parks. They will retreat from those who pressure them to participate in civilized activity. Often they choose to have one or two close friends, rather than a large loose association of many. This kind of being may choose self-destruction or hyper-isolation in the face of enforced participation in the modern economy.

[/center][/left]

Whaddya think?

#26

Perhaps this ‘Canary’ (yellow diamond?) is, by nature, a conductor of their surroundings, maybe even a hyper-conductor. Hyper-empathetic, hyper-sensitive to all external stimulus {by no means a bad thing. until the self-destruction}, hyper-exposed.

too loud, too busy, too colorful, too violent

If every essence has a song, then according to the hypothetical example of this hermitic model every moment spent within the tempest of civilization could bombard the senses like a dischordant thundering orchestra, and, figuratively speaking, the canary could perforate their eardrums trying to plug them.

Without proper aegis such a state could spell disaster.

Naked before teh storm. Without something to ground them, ‘canary’ could fry themselves after years of conducting all this modern bullshit.

That’s what I think. Not the most cohesive response.
I think I have met someone in a kindred position.

#27

the definitions read like a good role playing game.

#28

i have a lot to say on this and would like to address it as fully and clearly as possible. first i will respond to penny scout’s post then on wildrix’s post.
civ. will collapse. it will be ugly. mass chaos, death, destruction, pain. these are neccissary though. out of chaos comes balance, out of death…life. it is the way of the universe.
things of civ. will be around for a long time. our high level of processed material will make sure of that. we add preservative to everything. it takes 15 years for a cig butt to break down, and thats just a cig butt, what about the metal, plastic and cement? they will far outlast me, my children and their children.
your question penny scout, will they cease to carry civilized power once civ. has collapsed, gets to the heart of what it means to rewild. these things have power, many kinds of power. they all come from the earth, so first they have earth power, the power our earth mother gave them. then civilized humans took that power and transformed it. we took their first power out of them and made it our power, civilized power. as long as the civilized system is functioning they will have this power. once civ. has collapsed they too an begin to heal like us humans. without the system they return to the first power. a good example. think of the old rusted junk piles you tend to find on farms (old tractors, cars, cans ect…). first the materials had to be taken from their home, processed (given civilized power) and put into play in the system. they were discarded (for many reasons like new technology came and out competed old technology) and left to rust and break down. as they break down they return to their original elemental form, eventually back into the soil, back where mother first had them. until this process is completed they still affect their surroundings. if you are cut with rusted metal you can get tetnus. the point bing here is it is a process, part of a continuum. as that civilized power was added, that civilized power will decease. it just takes time.
as far as thinking of them as wild material we must examine what feral means. once domesticated (civilized) turned wild. do you penny scout think of yourself as wild material? are you civilized now, are you turning wild. this question seems to have come from a place of ego. the beings of the earth are our relations, no one above no one below. if we can turn wild then why not our brothers and sisters who have also been enslaved by the civilized system. indeed enslaved by us. as far as i am concerned the civilized materials will rewild better then most humans will. most civilized humans will die in the crash, probably somewhere around 98 or 99 % of them. ALL of the material we have civilized will return to the earth. and as far as us thinking of them as wild material, they already are wild material, wild material that has been enslaved. every thing must rewild, every road, every building, every car, every agricultural crop, all of it. it is the process of this rewilding that matters. civilized life way, primitive life way. key words…life way. all of these materials can be used in a civilized way or a primitive way. it is not the material itself, for we are all wild.
“If we use parts of what was once a refrigerator and a computer to support an uncivilized lifestyle is that okay?”
it depends, if that lifestyle is returning to balance then using those things might be necessary. i use beer cans out in the forest to boil water. again we have to talk about process here. the life way we have known for so long is very ingrained in us. we see it all around us every day every moment. we use it in everything we do. we can turn that civilized lifeway into primitve life way. and the things that are rewilding with us can help. healing takes time. the healing of the earth will take thousands of years. we are entering into a process of healing, all the material is entering into this process as we are. and as the civilized human wont last, neither will the civilized material. the wild human will once again return, the wild material will to. and over those thousands of years the power given to the material by civilization will diminish and eventually fade away, leaving us with what the earth mother intended… balance. eventually there will be no parts left of a fridge, or car, or a computer for us to use, only what mother provides, which is all we have ever needed.
“Or should we take it upon ourselves to destroy and return to the earth any remnants that might make rebuliding civilization all to easy?”
we can definitly help in this healing, in fact it is our duty as humans to help in this healing. we must work with earth mother to destroy and return the remnants of civilization. we have to put her in a place where she can return whats hers to where it needs to be. as far as rebuilding civilization… that shit wont be easy at all. we live in such a global society. the very very very large majority of humans have forgotten how to directly take care of their needs. they must rely on countless other processes to get the most simple of things. 95% of the human population lives in a city. cities must import everything they need to survive. those few who do try to start up again are going to be ravaged by the masses because they will have and the masses will not. in affect civilization will consume itself. but for those very witty people who will undoubtabley figure out how to keep some of it around, the scouts and guardian warriors will know what to do with them. for they will be coming from a place of earth perspective, balanced perspective and will be so much more powerful than the remaining few. the wildlings will not allow civ to rise again. and it will not only be the scouts job but all humans who are left. we will pass stories down to our children of our mistakes. we will learn from history so as not to repeat it.
the tides are shifting, the wildlings will soon have the power and the civilized will vanquish. we just need to gain the responibilty and respect to honor that power and why it was given to us. if we can do that, we all will heal.

#29

Here’s a TimesOnline article about how long it would take for civilzation’s remains to decay. The article’s image (a timeline of the healing process) is no longer in the article, but Anthropik’s 5th World blog had a copy so I include it here. Click on the attachment below to see the full version of the image.

Link to the TimesOnline article.

#30

Allow me to toss $0.02 from my own perspective:

I feel neither proud nor ashamed of my reclusiveness. I merely accept it as part of who I’ve become, and that working to change it is a suicidal venture as long as I remain in this environment and lifestyle. As for cowardice, it’s so antagonistically loaded a word I’ll assume you used it in haste.

What reasons would someone have for planning to remain removed from societal interaction indefinitely?

My own reasons amount to lacking a certain mechanism most people seem to have that allows them to deflect the omnipresent humiliation and ridicule of modern social interaction, without it living on in a neverending torrent of vivid nightmares and flashbacks.

How would this benefit the person? How would this benefit anyone?

By excluding the vehicle for the above problem (social interaction) I preserve the better part of my sanity and judgement which would otherwise be severely compromised. The benefit to others of my absence would be a social group free of a “weak link” that might go insane if I remained in the group and dragged down those who may have come to depend on me.

How would this hinder the person?

The #1 hindrance is the lack of a social/tribal support base. Humans are ill-adapted to going it alone, and doing so requires full use of the “safety net” that is human intelligence.

Does the hermit cheat the rest of the community by denying them the full worth of their gifts?

The ability to provide such gifts may be undermined if the hermit remained in the community.

Does this behavior show a lack of compassion?
No more than an sick child vomiting shows a lack of cleanliness.
Is the life of the hermit the apex of self-centered and apathetic lifestyles?

In some cases, undoubtedly so. Look at the rapid rise in single-occupancy residences for that. The hermitic existence is reached by many paths, however. To call ALL hermits a symptom of apathy and selfishness is to deny the phenomenon any legitimacy, or its history that stretches back millenia.

To summarise:

My own reclusiveness definitely fits within the type #2 given, as it’s primarily based on fear. It was different during childhood, I was still a solitary but more for reason #3. I amassed huge amounts of rather random knowledge all on my own, but wasn’t particularly averse to playing with the other kids once in a while.

The attitude that solitude is a dysgenetic phenomenon is only a partially correct one. A tribe of hermits is no tribe at all, of course. Neither is a tribe comprised exclusively of shamans. Yet if the shaman is a near-universal part of tribal life, why not the hermit? Indeed, may not the two roles have much in common? Both can involve personal upheaval, revelation, introspection and hardship. Could the adoption of the ascetic Hermit by organised religion in recent centuries be rooted in a similar role from primitive times?

To dismiss the Hermit out of hand is neglect at best, and dogma at worst.

#31

Some administrative type might want to move all this yak into a new topic. Social Tech : ‘Those Who Do Not Participate in Society Much’. I dunno. A suggestion.

Kaileverdant, firstly, thank you for your 2cents.

I feel neither proud nor ashamed of my reclusiveness.

Excellent! I asked for neither a justification nor an explanation from you or any other purported recluse. I merely want to delve into the topic as deeply as we possibly can, together, affectionately, in discourse. I want us to ask the right questions and follow the threads of intelligent inquiry.

Why do I want to pursue this topic? It’s kinda interesting.

As for cowardice, it's so antagonistically loaded a word I'll assume you used it in haste.

I thought it the best word for the sentence. Cowards exist. The dictionary defines the word so : lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.

Shall I look up phobia?

I try not to color my observations with flippant judgements. I try. Really.

My own reasons amount to lacking a certain mechanism most people seem to have that allows them to deflect the omnipresent humiliation and ridicule of modern social interaction, without it living on in a neverending torrent of vivid nightmares and flashbacks.

The mechanism you’re lacking sounds alot like internalized anesthesia. When it comes to shame I take the advice of poet Robert Bly and say “You cannot shame me. I will not let you.” It’s empowering, and not in the cheap new age way. More like in a end of the Labyrinth DANCE THAT MAGIC DANCE, DAVID BOWIE! kind of way.

Also, expression plays a big role in laying the nightmares to rest. Keeping them locked in the toychest at the foot of the bed only makes the demons of the past hungrier.

Bust loose and get it all out there. Sing your everything to the world. Let them know. It’s a liberating, cleansing experience.

The miserable enslaved ghosts of civilization might not like it.
The birds might.

I know you didn’t ask for my advice. I’m no expert. I hope my ideas help all the same.

By excluding the vehicle for the above problem (social interaction) I preserve the better part of my sanity and judgement which would otherwise be severely compromised.

Kaliverdant. We all so crazy already. It’s part of the beauty. Escape from any miniscule fragment of self, sane or otherwise [and by what standard do we measure sanity?], is not safe.

Such escapes might indeed be the source of aberrant behavior.

I don’t know what else to say about that.

The benefit to others of my absence would be a social group free of a "weak link" that might go insane if I remained in the group and dragged down those who may have come to depend on me.

Any group that rejects you for your alleged weakness does not foster the quality of the most value in any relationship or web of relationships: unconditional love.

Without unconditional love a group is just a herd. A terrible, ugly, nasty, self-centered, moronic herd. and if one drags this herd down it reflects equally on ones inability to handle socializing as it does the groups inability to handle humanity with care and compassion.

To dismiss the Hermit out of hand is neglect at best, and dogma at worst.

I want to know more about why people relinquish their community. I want to probe the innards and taste the nectar at the center.

I want to take delusions and place them in undiluted light.

I want to do my part to ease the fears of anyone here who doesn’t feel welcome in the chattering world of human interaction. perhaps because I’ve sat in that lonesome chair.

1 Like
#32

[quote=“WildeRix, post:23, topic:73”]I’ll throw my $0.02 into the thread.

The artifacts of civilization will not disappear too quickly. They will linger for a long time before they get swallowed back into the earth. I think we will find new ways to make use of the things we find useful as rewilded people. Just take a look at Michael Green’s Afterculture for a sample of the possibilities.

I don’t think living ferally necessarily requires that we do everything primitively. I want to know how to do things primitively as much as possible because you can find primitive resources more easily than other things. But that doesn’t mean I won’t consider the artifacts left over from civilization as resources as well.

Maybe I can make a simple wind generator from found materials to run some electronic items. Maybe I can make my own biodiesel or use wood-gas to power a car to go find my family member and bring them back to my tribe–or to expedite trade between other tribes.

I don’t think technology itself contains any evil. Digging sticks, flintknapping, making cordage, bows and atlatls–these all exemplify technology. The real question lies in what we choose to do with the technology. Do we rape the earth, kill our non-human neighbors, deplete the land, and pollute the air and water? Or do we find simpler, more balanced ways to use the knowledge we have?

I think even my son’s children will know what the terms “refrigerator” and “computer” refer to, but they will think of them in a different light. Maybe the terms will feel as distant and unexperienced as “arrowhead” and “fire drill” seem to kids today–something they may have heard of but have no knowledge of. Or maybe we will still use these items but in different ways. Maybe we will use old refrigerators as “insulator boxes” to keep things warm. Maybe printed circuit boards will turn into jewelry–we will melt the copper of them to make decorative plating.

I don’t think these things will disappear, I think they will get transformed. I think even the junk of civilization will go feral because we will think of new ways to use the resources at hand.[/quote]

 Civilization will not dissapear quickly, at least not in our linear sense of time. in earth time we have been living like this for but a blink of an eye. we will find new ways of using what is at hand. the key difference is how we are using them. in a civilized life way you use civilized things in a civilized manner. in a primitive life way you use things in a primitive manner. key word...way. artifacts from a civilized way still come from an unbalance system. everything from mother earth we use directly already comes from a place of balance, so it is from her i wish to learn how to live.
 using terms like feral and primitive can be a trap as well, as words have many meanings to many people. all primitive means is first. primitive skills = first skills. our first way of life. using rocks, wood, bone, dirt ect... is not a product of primitive. these things are used civilly as well. as i said in the last post all civilized material will be going through the process of rewilding. so at times it may necessitate their use. until civilization has fully returned to the earth we will still be using things created from this process. however, civilized things carry civilized power. the more wild we use, the better. the more we listen to earth mother, the faster the healing will take place.
 i think going feral does require us to do every thing primitvely as primitive is a process. feral means domestic (civilized) gone wild. in the wild you have to take care of all your needs directly, this is living primitively. the artifacts left over from civilization will also be living primitively as civilization will support them no longer.
Maybe I can make a [url=http://www.velacreations.com/chispito.html]simple wind generator[/url] from found materials to run some electronic items. Maybe I can [url=http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_link.html#homebrews]make my own biodiesel[/url] or use [url=http://renascent.ratbag.googlepages.com/wood-gasproducers]wood-gas[/url] to power a car to go find my family member and bring them back to my tribe--or to expedite trade between other tribes.
  whats the need for a wind generator or biodeiesel, when everything is already provided by our earth mother, our first mother. and besides these processes need other support systems to be up and running for them to function. what road will you be able to travel when we cannot maintain the roads. why would you need electricity. these things are products of a civilized life way. why keep them around.? what else would you use a road for but to drive on, what else would you use a fridge for but to store food, or a grain processor to process grain, or an oil rig to pump oil. we are talking systems here. civilized technology for a civilized sytem. earth technology for an earth system. as well, trade did just fine without cars for thousands of years. and any travel on a road after collapse will be putting a big sign over your head saying come and get me im in the open.
I don't think technology itself contains any evil. Digging sticks, flintknapping, making cordage, bows and atlatls--these all exemplify technology. The real question lies in what we choose to do with the technology. Do we rape the earth, kill our non-human neighbors, deplete the land, and pollute the air and water? Or do we find simpler, more balanced ways to use the knowledge we have?
 before assesing that technology itself has no evil you need to ask a couple questions. first and fore most is what choices does that particular technology give you. the choice isnt even there to pump oil without an oil rig. can you rape the earth on the same scale with a digging stick as with a mechanized plow, kill at the same rate with a bow and arrow as with a nuclear missile.
 civilization is inherintly unbalanced, any technology coming from civilization will also be just as unbalanced and destructive. civilized technology is used for a civilized lifestyle. in returning to earth way what we have available will be earth technologies.
 The knowledge we have of civilized sustainable technologies came from an unbalanced lifeway. civilized sustainable technology is a response to living unsustainable. earthway has always been sustainable so no response is necessary. and besides our "renewable, sustainable" technologies are a trap. they require lots of processes for infrastructor and maintanence. after a collapse they will not be feasible as things break down over time and with nothing to replace them they will fade away. so why not trust the mother from the get go and do it her way.
I think even my son's children will know what the terms "refrigerator" and "computer" refer to, but they will think of them in a different light.
 of course they will. it is absolutely crucial they do. unlearned historical patterns tend to repeat themselves. if we do not learn from civilizations mistakes we will repeat them. we must teach our children of these things. we must pass stories onto them so they can heal.
 healing is a process, it takes time. once the crash comes the earth can BEGIN to heal. this is a process that will take a long time. both for the earth and for us. we are talking generational time here not individual linear based time. every passing generation will have the chance to immerse itself further into a balanced flow. i will always carry the scars of civilization. so will my children and their children. but those scars will fade away with each generation. think of a hundred generations from now, or 400 or 1,000. will they know what a fridge is, what is was used for and how it was made. will they believe that food comes from a grocery store or the bosom of the mother.
 earth time works much different than linear time. she will take back all that civilization has created, but on her time. it will be a long process. in 250,000 years there will still be nuclear waste. we can help her with this healing, but it requires a shift from civilized conditioning to a balanced relationship. coming from a seat of balance we can help  heal. until we get there (balance), everything we do has potential for harm.
Maybe printed circuit boards will turn into jewelry--we will melt the copper of them to make decorative plating
 you will never catch me wearing the things of civilization after the collapse. it is dumb to keep them around, and insanity to wear them around your neck. we will have plenty of reminders all around us of the destruction it caused.
I don't think these things will disappear, I think they will get transformed. I think even the junk of civilization will go feral because we will think of new ways to use the resources at hand.
 remember feral = once civilized. it too (the junk) will go feral and rewild, but it is returning to the earth way which means it will be looked at and used differently.
 oil in the ground (or metal, or electricity) is looked at by natives peoples as oil in the ground. it is where it needs to be, doing what mother intended it to do.
 as we enter back into a balance relationship we wont need those resources. mother will provide all that is needed. and remember primitive is a way of using resources and not necissarily what resources we use. as we use resources in a primitive fashion, mother will guide us to which are best and for what reasons. plus those civilized resources also carry the scars of destruction, if we want to heal we have to get rid of those scars. it is better to use stone and wood then metal and plastic. balanced energy comes from the former, unbalanced energy from the latter.
#33

Meh. Now that we have come to the third page, I think this thread has a life of its own, and I don’t want to interrupt it. I’d rather keep the flow going where it rests now.

If Scout or Willem disagree, they can feel free to move it. Me? I’ll let it run where it runs for now.

#34

treewhisperer, you make many beautiful points. i hope you don’t mind, but i changed the places where you quoted me in your post to markup quotes instead of just being in quotation marks–to further clarify your writing and help it stand out from what you are responding to. if you do mind, let me know, and i will gladly change it back.

in a civilized life way you use civilized things in a civilized manner. in a primitive life way you use things in a primitive manner. key word...way.

i think we’re saying the same thing here. but we’re coming at it from different perspectives.

Civilization will not disappear quickly, at least not in our linear sense of time. in earth time we have been living like this for but a blink of an eye. we will find new ways of using what is at hand. the key difference is how we are using them.
what road will you be able to travel when we cannot maintain the roads. [...] what else would you use a road for but to drive on

i know it will not disappear in my life time. the roads will still be roads even as they decay. you ask what a road is for but to drive on? you imply that driving is the only means of travel on a road. the roads may have been designed by civilization for driving, and maybe that’s what i’ll do with them, but essentially what roads are for is ease of travel. maybe in a perfectly balanced world, there is no need for that kind of fast travel, and where the need exists, paths and waterways are fast enough. but i don’t expect that kind of balance to happen in my lifetime.

all civilized material will be going through the process of rewilding. so at times it may necessitate their use. until civilization has fully returned to the earth we will still be using things created from this process. however, civilized things carry civilized power. the more wild we use, the better. the more we listen to earth mother, the faster the healing will take place.

i don’t disagree with you. i definitely believe in the power that civilization has invested into its artifacts. i think the disruptive, unappreciative means by which civilization processes the world into “products” hurts the spirits in those things and tears them apart. but i also believe that appreciation on our part helps heal those spirits. thereby their rewilding is hastened.

i can’t deny that living as primitively as possible is the best means to live–the only sustainable means there is. i’m not trying to deny that. but as long as the artifacts of civilization remain, i don’t want to see them as just the evil that civilization was. i choose to see them as the potential they have in my more feral life and the life of my feralizing tribe.

my whole feeling fits the subject of this thread. i don’t think i will fully rewild in my lifetime. maybe i can. maybe once the civ goes down, i can find an untouched place in the Ozarks to dwell and forget the horrors and never be touched by them. but i doubt it.

i expect to live among and near and pass by the ruins for the rest of my days. but i don’t want to disdain the ruins. you may, that is your choice, and that choice contains as much validity as mine. i will likely chose to use the ruins in an uncivilized way.

before assesing that technology itself has no evil you need to ask a couple questions. first and fore most is what choices does that particular technology give you. the choice isnt even there to pump oil without an oil rig. can you rape the earth on the same scale with a digging stick as with a mechanized plow, kill at the same rate with a bow and arrow as with a nuclear missile. civilization is inherintly unbalanced, any technology coming from civilization will also be just as unbalanced and destructive. civilized technology is used for a civilized lifestyle. in returning to earth way what we have available will be earth technologies. The knowledge we have of civilized sustainable technologies came from an unbalanced lifeway. civilized sustainable technology is a response to living unsustainable. earthway has always been sustainable so no response is necessary. and besides our "renewable, sustainable" technologies are a trap. they require lots of processes for infrastructor and maintanence. after a collapse they will not be feasible as things break down over time and with nothing to replace them they will fade away. so why not trust the mother from the get go and do it her way.

there is no doubt that a plow scars the soil faster than a digging stick. but a hickory stick scars the soil faster than a pine stick. it is a matter of scale. true the civilized scale was unbalanced–beyond belief. that is why it will crash. but if i chose to use a plow to turn a small bit of soil more quickly than i could with a stick, all i have done is collapsed time. same thing with using a vehicle to get to my parents faster than by walking. civilization collapsed time too much, and it destroyed everything in the process.

all of the civilized artifacts came from the mother as much as the primitive ones do. perhaps they came faster and though a complex hierarchy. but they are still part of the mother. i think i can honor her and the spirits of these things in using them wisely the same way that i can honor the spirit of a chunk of chert that allows me to break it into flakes that allow me to break them into blades.

anything can be a tool for benefit or harm. a slaver can bully a hundred slaves into scarring the earth with digging sticks. i don’t believe that the technology bears the weight of the evil as much as the intent and the lack of appreciation and respect and thankfulness.

if i power a diesel truck with rancid fat from a dead deer that i turn into bio-diesel in order to bring my aging father to join my tribe, have i dishonored the deer? i might dishonor my tribe by using potential food for something frivolous, but i have enough wisdom to not do that. if the fat cannot feed my tribe, i could leave it to the animals or i can use it for something else. if i take it in honor and thankfulness, i don’t believe i have dishonored the spirits.

on the other hand, if i rape a plot of land to grow soy in a monoculture to use as fuel to power the tractor that rapes the land, i see that as dishonor.

whats the need for a wind generator or biodeiesel, when everything is already provided by our earth mother, our first mother. and besides these processes need other support systems to be up and running for them to function. what road will you be able to travel when we cannot maintain the roads. why would you need electricity. these things are products of a civilized life way. why keep them around.?

i don’t know what i might need a wind generator for, but i won’t dismiss the possibility just because the knowledge of using the wind’s kinetic energy to move magnets among coils and excite the electrons in the coils came from a civilized history. the wind, the magnets, the copper all have a spirit, and these spirits can work together to transform one type of energy into another. i don’t see finding use in that as being civilized any more than i see finding the way flint’s microcrystalline structure fractures into sharp flakes as civilized. all matter comes from the earth (mother) and all energy comes from the sun (father).

before assesing that technology itself has no evil you need to ask a couple questions. first and fore most is what choices does that particular technology give you. the choice isnt even there to pump oil without an oil rig. can you rape the earth on the same scale with a digging stick as with a mechanized plow, kill at the same rate with a bow and arrow as with a nuclear missile.

i can choose to kill my brother with a bone knife. i can chose to massacre a hundred deer with flint-tipped atlatl spears. choices always exist for benefit and harm with any technology. true, gunpowder and lead let us do it faster than willow and chert, but the choice of what to do and how to do it still remain with the doer–to do something honorable or dishonorable to the spirits. i can hunt honorably with a gun. when the bullets and gunpowder run out, then i won’t anymore. in the meantime, i will be practicing with bows and atlatls and slings. but i could also hunt dishonorably with primitive weapons. the choice is the crux.

that is why i believe rewilding takes more than primitive skills. it takes a change in the way we think. and that is why i don’t find evil in any technology–only in the way the technologies are used. maybe the power in civilized artifacts that feels evil is just the cry of the spirits to be used in balance. even if the artifact came from imbalance, i don’t think that necessarily means that the artifact can’t be used in balance.

perhaps you think my goal is to live on wind power and bio-diesel. if that is the case, then i have not been clear in the way i present my ideas, and i apologize for the ambiguity. i believe that the closer the technology is to the source, the closer our contact is with the spirits that provide the tools, the less chance there comes for harm. but i also believe we can use things built in imbalance in a balanced way and that those spirits will rejoice.

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you will never catch me wearing the things of civilization after the collapse. it is dumb to keep them around, and insanity to wear them around your neck. we will have plenty of reminders all around us of the destruction it caused.

just like the hip-hop community can redeem the “N” word for themselves and rob it of its power over their mindset, just like the gay community can redeem the “F” word (the other “F” word), so i think we can redeem the copper in a circuit board and let it be the shiny happy adornment that it would have been for the Monacans over 400 years ago.
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#35
[glow=red,2,300]High five denied. [/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Denial of high five denied![/glow]

I challenge you to accept the high five
a) because of the irony of a bunch of hermits getting together to celebrate their hermitness in the first place.
b)because even if the reason for being a hermit stems from fear, which surely it often does, the feeling of camraderie that stems from meeting another who understands that fear can be celebrated, thus we are not promoting the fear but rather accepting it for what it is and actually trumping it by using it against itself in such a contrary fashion.

Oh yeah. hermit party. my house. no rsvp required because using the telephone is scary.

Okay, I’m not exactly proud of my cowardice, it makes life difficult, but I am okay with who I am. I don’t like people who aren’t okay with it. In fact I hate people who aren’t okay with it. For example my last boyfriend would get on my case and want me to be “nicer” to his friends and family. He thought my social phobia was “impolite”.

I have two stories about this: One is that I was once part of a forum for people with a certain type of social phobia where you won’t talk at all, which is what I used to do as a child. And after I told my story all these concerned parents emailed me asking for advice, how could they help their kids? what finally got me to change? and all I could say was “let them be who they are. Tell them they are okay.” I refused to change until people left me alone. The more attention people drew to the fact that I wasn’t talking the more freakish I felt and had I one day decided to say something with all that pressure on me, it would have garnered me the most attention of all. For the most part a person with social anxiety doesn’t want to be noticed especially not for how different they are. They want to blend in, they want people to like them. Pulling me out of school in the middle of class and sending me to a million therapists was exactly the wrong thing to do. What’s a seven year old to think other than, “There’s something wrong with me! I’m not normal!”

The second story is the story of Nelson. Nelson was a tough looking little black boy at a group home in South Carolina where I volunteered as a freshman in college. Nelson didn’t really talk much and didn’t really like anyone so when he became attached to me everyone was pretty surprised. All I can say is that Nelson must have seen something like a kindred spirit in me. He must have been attracted the the fact that I wasn’t overly friendly or exuberant. We played together quietly and eventually he told me things, about the woods, and the wild boars.

So I think that hermits do play a role. Most of us aren’t talking about having no contribution to society, and no relationships whatsoever. I also like the idea of the canary. It’s a bit of a twist on the issue. If cowardice is not facing pain or opposition a social phobe is very brave because they are generally forced to face that pain on a daily basis, because the are more sensitive than a normal person. It’s only reasonable for them to want a break from it.

I believe a wallflower is not only sensitive but above all a good observer. We know things. We see things. We hear things when others are too busy stutting their stuff or flapping their jaws. We stockpile information in our heads that might be very handy someday.

I also believe that you are never alone in the woods. It’s full of plants, animals, spirits. Think of it as differently-social rather than anti-social perhaps.

I want to know more about why people relinquish their community.

Lots of reasons,

-lack of real people who are interested in the same things, other rewilders would be a common one on this site. plus maybe you don’t like drinking and smoking and all the socializing happens in bars. maybe you like going to bed early and all the socializing happens past your bedtime. I often experience those problems.

-lack of interest in “small talk” and idle gossip, and talking for the sole purpose of filling silence that constitutes most of human interaction. I tend to forgo normal getting to know you behaviors and formalities, They just seem so contrived and disingenuous. My favorite people to talk to are “geeky”. People who bring up obscure topics wonder incessantly about things I would never think to wonder about.

-feelings of not wanting to burden someone with your problems, and problems being the only thing you’ve really got to share. How many times have you heard someone complain about how all their friends don’t do anything but bitch to them about their silly dramas and why can’t they just be happy? and then you are like “oh shit, do I do that?” There is also the problem of bridging the gap until you are close enough to talk about such things. I often find there are some words that always stick in my throat and have to resort writing letters and emails to people I could just as easily talk to because for some reason the same words don’t stick in my hands.

-fear of judgement. that’s a big one. not wanting people to think are crazy or discourage you from whatever it is you want to do. I tend to go against the grain so family members, for example, are always trying to dissuade me from my dreams. Thats why all my dreams are secret. Even my day to day plans are secret. No thank you I do not want any “advice”. People love to give advice in lieu of support.

  • of course one of the biggest attractions to being a cabin-in-the-woods- type hermit is getting a little peace and quiet not only from people but from everything that comes with people, i.e. civilization. cars, electricity, news…
#36

wow, emily, you just voiced so many things that i have often felt about my own introversion but had never put into words. thank you for that. moreover, thank you for doing it so eloquently.

i often introvert. and i rejoiced when i took the meyers briggs test to find out that introversion doesn’t necessarily have to indicate a desire to spend time away from people so much as it indicates how one restores one’s energy. extroverts glean energy from other people, from the interactions, from the talk and chatter and hubbub. introverts lose energy that way and often feel drained after spending time with groups of people, but they regain energy when they spend time alone–or at least without other people.

I also believe that you are never alone in the woods. It's full of plants, animals, spirits. Think of it as differently-social rather than anti-social perhaps.

while listening to Martin Prechtel’s “Grief and Praise” today, i heard him say pretty much the same thing. i love synchronicity like that. and i believe what both you and Prechtel have said, emily. when i spent time in the woods as a boy, i did not have an awareness of the life there so much as i had an awareness of the lack of other humans. but now that i have discovered the beauty and intricacy of the animist world, i can feel the spirits there. but these other-than-human neighbors flow their energy into me instead of flowing my energy out of me.

“tweet tweet,” says this canary.

#37

Thanks Rix-
I confess that I also just listened to the Grief and Praise CD that scout sent! so that’s still synchronicity, but in a different way, haha! I believed that before though. I think I mentioned something about it in a past post, that people who like spending time alone are likely to develop different talents such as closer relationships with plants or animals.

#38

Emily, You’re a fucking genious. Great post!

#39

Why thank you, Peter.

#40

yeah, emily, you totally nailed it. thanks for the semi-rant!

i hereby bequeath you the title, “She Speaks for the Canaries”.

So say we all.

-w-