Martial Arts

Stick fighting seems like a very good investment, Willem. You are absolutely right, there are plenty of sticks for the taking.

I really get what you mean about the “rigid” classical styles, like akido or tae kwon do. I have always prefered the chinese styles for their fluidity and grace. I don’t know if you are familiar with Jeet Kun Do( Bruce Lee’s style), but he desgined it as a response to the the classical “rigid” styles that were becoming very popular at that time. If you haven’t read or seen his book, check it out. It is a very open, very individualistic style, and not confined to practicing forms over and over.

I have been intersted in SHIFT ever since you first mentioned it. I am hoping to be in Portland one sat to check it out. sounds like alot of fun.

R

P.S. you look just like Freddy Mercury in your pic

P.S. you look just like Freddy Mercury in your pic

Wow! I’d say, Rory. Initially I was thinking it looked like Doc Holiday (Val Kilmer’s character) on the movie Tombstone. But I’d say FM is much more accurate.

Anyway, Willem I’d like to know how SHIFT works. I want to start some kind of learning space in my community, so I’m interested. Is it run kind of like an Open Space gathering? If there is a good description of it on your blog just send me there. Or perhaps we can start another thread where I can ask some questions?

Thank you,

Curt

Willem,

Forget my last post. I went to the link you provided and I think I understand what SHIFT is about. I imagine everybody just meets up and you let things unfold, kind of like an Open Space gathering. It looks really interesting.

Take care,

Curt

Well, SHIFT has gone through a few phases. In some we made it like an Open Space free-for-all, in others a more instructor-driven experience, in others more like a dance-off. Right now it looks like me drilling participants in what I consider basic movement skills. In some way, it does work like an Open Space every time, because I/we base it on what the people who show up want to do and learn. Thus, it looks a bit like a martial-arts club right now. That could change at any time.

Funny, Rory, how you mention aikido in reference to ‘rigid’ martial-arts…though the art as a whole does display some classicalness (especially for beginners!!!), basic aikido body skills (not technique, but ability to center, relax, connect with an opponent, and the idea of transcending the idea of ‘opponents’) have operated so centrally in what I do I almost feel like I really practice aikido, even though I haven’t studied it in years and don’t remember any of the techniques. Ha! You can ask Chuck for some feedback on this – some of the aikido centering exercises had a big impact on his balance and so on. Also Towhee, a member here, attends and he may have some insight about his experiences.

[EDIT: Also, yes, Jeet Kune Do effing rocks. I have a really good friend who grew up practically in Dan Inosanto’s lap, and he has loads and loads of great stories and martial arts insights. I can’t believe how much genius Bruce Lee possessed, for more than his movie career would imply]

[EDIT #2: Freddie Mercury? I usually get Johnny Depp, believe it or not. I did pick Freddie Mercury’s pic from the avatar list. Thus the resemblence of Freddie Mercury to…himself. :wink: ]

Freddie Mercury? I usually get Johnny Depp, believe it or not. I did pick Freddie Mercury's pic from the avatar list. Thus the resemblence of Freddie Mercury to..himself.

Lmao.

I picked Akido b/c of the high level of formulaic movements, etc. I probably should have stuck with a style I more knowledgable about, like Tae Kwon Do. I’l have to ask them. I have always been curious about the resemblance to some of the Wing Chun forms and defense.

Sometimes kali, a filipino art, feels a hell-of-a-lot like tai chi with sticks. weird.

I’d like to learn about kali. Do you have any book recommendations, Willem?

Take care,

Curt

Curt-

The best book on Kali remains out of print and expensive. But I can’t imagine that you don’t have a kali school nearby. You could go check out a class. Also a good websearch could turn up reams of interesting reading material on web sites. Do a search on kali or escrima or filipino stick fighting. I’ve found tons of interesting stuff on the web, myself.

yrs,
W

I’d like to learn about kali. Do you have any book recommendations, Willem?

Take care,

Curt[/quote]

Interesting essay by Tamarack Song:

http://www.guardianwarrior.org/My_Homepage_Files/Page10.html

excerpt:

Martial Arts and the Guardian’s Relationship with Force/Violence

by Tamarack Song (edited by RedWolfReturns)

When a traditional Martial Arts fighter comes to a Guardian training
camp, he nearly always finds himself disoriented. There’s no level
playing field, and he almost never meets his match face to face as he
is accustomed to do. This leaves him feeling impotent. He can’t use
his senses to connect with his opponent, nor does he know what’s
coming at him or from where. His strength and fighting skills do him
little good, in fact, they have crippled him. This is because in
developing his strength and skills, he has ignored the development
of his innate intuitive, awareness, and defensive abilities. He stands
there like a Deer in the middle of an open field during hunting
season.

Why is this? Because fighting arts competitions are phony. They’re
unrealistic because they are staged. Even so-called “no holds barred”
“cage fights” are filled with artificial rules and conventions. Two
People face each other. There is posturing, an adrenaline rush, and
then action. The natural environment is gone, all the unknown
factors taken out of the situation. There is none of the stealth or
surprise that is part of a Guardian action where conflict is involved.
In a Martial Arts match, fighting is the only option. In a real life
situation, fighting is but one of many options.

I hate to sound this way but, that quote strikes me as someone who has never engaged in combat.

I am not familiar with Guardian Warrior, other than here, but I doubt I would feel impotent or disoriented. I was taught tthat there is no level playing feild, and that our senses and brains are our most potent weapons. In the real world, one does not square off against one guy, b/c his friends are gonna kick you in the ass as soon as you turn your back. You never “meet you match”, that shit is in the movies. Either the other person beats or he doesn’t.

Maybe I was taught differently, b/c I trained with a teacher who’s goal was and is “street self defense”, wiht sparring taking most of every class. The cops in class taught me some good moves too

I agree with quite a bit of the second paragraph, especially how competitions are phony. That has been my complaint about UFC, and all the other “professional” competetiotions. too unrealistic. But to imply that participating leaves one lacking is somewhat false.

We were barred from tourneys, by our master and the local tourney boards, b/c we trained strictly for ass-whooping, not points. Occasionally we’d get guys from rival schools who’d challenge us, but they’d never win. They’d try for the “point” kick, land and stop, and we wouldn’t. BUt, we were different, i guess.

I’ll read up more on it, and report further. sorry if this is sort of disorganized.

Some of you may be familiar with martial arts which are based not upon force opposing force but rather on allowing that which is directed at you to become you and flow through you. In this way the person who has expectation — who sees you as "opponent" — defeats himself, while at the same time helping you. He is directed, he has narrowed his focus, he is expending considerable energy in his aggression to defeat you. You are merely giving him his own energy, his own medicine, so-to-speak. Giving is receiving. "Because you are not resisting the flow — not walking in the wrong direction, as in the trail example above — you remain unscathed and refreshed. You maintain your centeredness, your perspective, and you keep your options open. It is much easier to move with the current than against it. And much more effective — you'll travel considerably more distance.

This is pretty much how I was trained. Not to resist, but travel with and redirect energy thrown at me. ONly a fool swims against the current.

I don’t know, I agree with alot of the sentiment of the article, but alot of the phrasings aggravate me.

this part i really didn’t like. i find it disengenous

Here are some characteristics of martial arts:
  1. they are practiced at a certain time and place
  2. the practice is separate and distinct from regular life
  3. the practice involves movements and postures that are different
    from regular life
  4. the practice is based on a different philosophy than that or regular
    life

the same could said about practicing anything. Woodworking is done in a certain time and place, distinct from regular life, and involves postures that are different. Number 4 could be said of just about anything, but I say this, if practicing is part of your “regular life”(which by definition it is) the philosophy invovled in practice of X skill are a part of your regular life. SHould I stop practicing guitar b/c I don’t make the shape of a minor 5th except then?

I get the sentiment, and have made similar criticisms about martial artists myself. But I don’t see how disparaging Martial Arts makes Guardian Warrior any better. seems to me one could replace Guardian Warrior with Ninja (or any other martial art) and it would still make sense.

At the same time these movements cannot be performed in a natural environment where one can be naturally responsive, because the natural environment interferes with the exercises

LOL, really? I use my Wing Chun training in the woods all the time. Moving quietly, quick reaction time, and climbing. Also, observation is the most important part of Martial Arts, IMO, and I use that literally constantly.

When I observe the basic stances and movements being taught in martial arts classes, I see what is learned naturally by moving through natural environments.

TO be a total smartass, I would like Song to show me where he learned a wrist strike in nature. Or maybe an outside crescent kick.

I wouldn’t mind taking this Guardian Warrior class, but I am not welcome at Teaching Drum. I “have a relationship” with tobacco and alcohol(not even weekly but I like to drink, yes), which makes me unfit to train with Song, as per his website’s statements.

You’ve taken this class,right Willem? could you tell what it’s like?

You've taken this class,right Willem? could you tell what it's like?

Ha ha. No, I haven’t taken any of his classes, but I enjoyed your curmudgeonly response. I had almost the exact same reaction: “Yeah…true, but…hmmm”.

Any half-competent martial-artist will allow their art to change their entire lives, the way they move, and constantly question how it applies to awkward or unusual situations. And where else will a modern urban human get to train balance, awareness, reaction time, but through martial-arts or some such training regimen?

But, he makes a fair point, that one’s lifestyle determines the extent of one’s training.

Alright! I made a page on “Body Skills” for the wiki, which focuses on the use of center. For now.

http://www.rewild.info/fieldguide/index.php?title=Body_Skills

Alright! I made a page on "Body Skills" for the wiki, which focuses on the use of center. For now.

Cool! Thank you for doing this, Willem.

Curt

TO be a total smartass, I would like Song to show me where he learned a wrist strike in nature. Or maybe an outside crescent kick.

So, what’s with the disrespect? I guess I would tend to expect a more respectful attitude toward others (especially elders) from someone with 15 years of wing-chun study under his belt.

I wouldn't mind taking this Guardian Warrior class, but I am not welcome at Teaching Drum. I "have a relationship" with tobacco and alcohol(not even weekly but I like to drink, yes), which makes me unfit to train with Song, as per his website's statements.

I think you’re making an assumption that you wouldn’t be welcome at the Teaching Drum. Lots of people come through the Drum who smoke and/or drink, they just leave their substances behind when they come (out of respect for the community’s wishes). Btw, do you smoke and drink in your dojo during class?

You've taken this class,right Willem? could you tell what it's like?

There are no “guardian warrior classes” being offered by Tamarack Song or the Teaching Drum Outdoor School. The Guardian Warrior Fellowship is an independent and informal fellowship that will be training it’s own. More like a practicing brotherhood than a school. I actually created the webpage.

Cool! Thank you for doing this, Willem.

Curt[/quote]

“You’re welcome”…errr no.
“It’s my pleasure”…er…e-prime buzzer again.
Hmmm.

“No Curt…thank YOU!”… No, that sounds too passive-agressive.

Lessee. “I live to serve.” ha ha. Fun, but perhaps too formal. “It pleased me”. No, too auto-erotic. “But of course”. No, too arrogant. “Consider yourself welcome”…no, has the hidden ‘to be’ and thus sounds cowardly.

Let’s break down the word “welcome”. “Well-come”.

I wonder if “you’re welcome” actually means anything at all anyway. What do I actually want to say? “I feel good knowing that it fed your spirit”. That describes how I feel. Maybe I should make an interweb acronym: IFGKTIFYS…'I feel good knowing etc."

ha ha. oh well.

So, what's with the disrespect? I guess I would tend to expect a more respectful attitude toward others (especially elders) from someone with 15 years of wing-chun study under his belt.
I have heard many songs-and-dances about so-and-so school is crap, or techniques make you a god, etc etc. This was one more. I was a bit harsh, but Song was kinda trash talking in the article, too. Like I said before, I never understood how disparaging other styles makes one's own better. Respect is earned, and I don't know/haven't read/never really heard of this dude Song, so I have very little respect for him. I'm not trying to be a dick, but my time is too important tome to waste it on mincing words.

I still think it is a valid question though…where exactly did he see a non-human do a wrist strike?

Btw, do you smoke and drink in your dojo during class?
no, but i don't go train for a year straight either. I don't really see how the two go together, but I imagine you were going with the "woods are my dojo, therefore sacred". I get you. Nothing profane about drinking ocasionally, IMO. Probably am assuming I wouldn't be welcome, but don't have an interest to go anyway.

[quote=“Willem, post:18, topic:119”]“You’re welcome”…errr no.
“It’s my pleasure”…er…e-prime buzzer again.
Hmmm.

“No Curt…thank YOU!”… No, that sounds too passive-agressive.

Lessee. “I live to serve.” ha ha. Fun, but perhaps too formal. “It pleased me”. No, too auto-erotic. “But of course”. No, too arrogant. “Consider yourself welcome”…no, has the hidden ‘to be’ and thus sounds cowardly.

Let’s break down the word “welcome”. “Well-come”.

I wonder if “you’re welcome” actually means anything at all anyway. What do I actually want to say? “I feel good knowing that it fed your spirit”. That describes how I feel. Maybe I should make an interweb acronym: IFGKTIFYS…'I feel good knowing etc."

ha ha. oh well.[/quote]

Wow, reading that e-prime stuggle fed my spirit. What the hell do we mean with “you’re welcome”? The Russians say “pozhaluisto” meaning “please”–akin to our “please, you’re embarrasing me.” or “please, you don’t need to be so polite.”

How about “no trouble” or “no sweat”. One might assume an eliptical “to be”, but one could also assume “it caused me no trouble” or “i broke no sweat over it.”

Like I said before, I never understood how disparaging other styles makes one's own better.

If you were to read more of the website with an open and questioning mind you’d likely notice that the guardian warrior stuff is not a martial art. This has nothing to do with “disparaging other styles” or becoming a “god” at combat through some “special technique”. In that article Tamarack Song is comparing apples and oranges. He’s not saying “my style is better than all those others”, he’s saying “this is fundamentally different than that, and here’s why”. The guardian warrior website is not about martial arts (though there is some crossover with a few aspects of what one might find in the more outside-the-box arts such as Ninjutsu). The essay by Song on martial arts is explaining a big part of why they’re different.

I still think it is a valid question though....where exactly did he see a non-human do a wrist strike?

It would be a valid question if it was posed in an open and honestly curious spirit (rather than an argumentative one), and if it addressed what Song actually wrote. As you yourself quoted him, Song wrote:

“When I observe the basic stances and movements being taught in martial arts classes, I see what is learned naturally by moving through natural environments.”

He doesn’t say anything about the movements of non-humans here, he’s talking about what we learn by moving through natural environments ourselves. He’s also talking about basic or core movements, not the details of specific and minute technical ones.

Respect is earned, and I don't know/haven't read/never really heard of this dude Song, so I have very little respect for him.

So you disrespect those you don’t know? You say you don’t disparage styles, but you disparage people? What martial tradition teaches that? All the martial artists and native teachers I ever studied with have taught honor and respect always (even for enemies, and especially for the unknown).

I'm not trying to be a dick, but my time is too important tome to waste it on mincing words.

Respect does not take more words than disrespect. And in my experience, disrespect often gets one embroiled in all kinds of messiness and conflict that tends to waste quite a lot of time.

no, but i don't go train for a year straight either. I don't really see how the two go together, but I imagine you were going with the "woods are my dojo, therefore sacred". I get you. Nothing profane about drinking ocasionally, IMO.

At the Teaching Drum, yes, training is for a year (but not in martial arts). There is no break from training, since it is one’s everyday life through all four seasons. And this involves the whole person, not just a part of him or her. That’s why the request to leave the substances behind. It actually has nothing to do with ideas about what’s “sacred” or “profane”. Those are your assumptions.

Probably am assuming I wouldn't be welcome, but don't have an interest to go anyway.

You would definitely be welcome. But yeah, not being interested kind of makes that irrelevant.

The essay, to me, seemed like it was written by someone with little martial arts experience. I have found that alot of the “differences” he propounded to be made up differences. Like the whole section about “stand up one on one” fights. Sure that is the competition style, but not that many people take “competition style” martial arts anymore. Only a fool thinks his enemies’ friends aren’t going to stab him in the back. Only a fool thinks a real fight is between only two people. Only a fool thinks that violence is the only conflict resolution strategy. We never trained for competition, we trained to protect ourselves and others. there is a very large difference, one that Song glosses over.

Edited Reason: I was being an asshole.

We’ll you’re right on that point, as far as I know Tamarack has no experience studying the martial arts. Still, from my own perspective (I’ve studied quite a number of arts for many years) I think the core of what he’s saying is valid, especially in relation to the mainstream of martial arts practice in America.

I’m surprised to find that you think the differences seem made up, since from my experience of doing both martial arts and a year of study in the wilderness with Song, they touch on my reality. But from what you mentioned earlier it seem this stems more from the idea that his “differences” would apply to anything (let me know if I’m wrong on that) and so would include what he’s advocating as well. From my experience these “differences” do apply to pretty much everything one does in civilized society, but they don’t apply to what he’s trying to advocate about the guardian path. And as I see it, just because the differences he notes apply to something doesn’t make that thing “wrong” or worthless, it just makes it different from what he’s advocating.