Hating on Ken Wilbur and all those Know-it-all Buddhist Yoga Rationalist types

[quote=“Willem, post:18, topic:115”][quote author=jhereg]I find it too difficult to make useful generalizations about different religions.
I manage to successfully combine Christian Gnosticism, Asatru and Taoism; Fukuoka-san combined Buddhism and Shinto.[/quote]

I don’t know what you mean to comment on here…do you think I made non-useful generalizations in some of my comments? Did someone else?[/quote]

Eh, I guess I understand better now that it was just a vent. :slight_smile:

When I first read it, the ‘buddhism’ aspect seemed to be more of a target, but looking back over it (w/ your additional comments) I see that it’s less a generalization about a specific religion than it is a specific annoyance with a general approach to religion/philosophy.

I don’t want to focus any energy on hating. Who or what life does this belong to again anyway?

I don’t know who Ken Wilbur is but I’ll hate with you Willem. I’ve got no problem with a little genuine hatred now and then. Before anyone argues with me know this: I fell in love with a devout Buddhist once, a personal assistant (I’d say slave) to a well-known guru. He loved me too. But it was like having an affair with a married man and a self-righteous one at that. The guru and enlightenment always came first. Everything was turned all topsy-turvy. If I was hurt by his actions, there was nothing for him to be sorry about, for my pain and suffering were good and natural. Frustrating to say the least.

Penny,

I’ll third your hate. I used to have a haters club every week at a local bar. I called myself “Haters Club Captain” and invited anyone and everyone I didn’t hate to come and hate with me. It was a blast. One time my friend hated on me for not hating enough. Haha.

From an asshole abuser to a crazy Buddhist… Sounds like slim pick’ns in Pennsylvania. I hope Nick is the cream of the crop. :wink:

The others weren’t from here. One was from Long Island and the other DC area. Nick’s great. I told him to get off the the forum though because it would ruin it for me! Haha. It’s not his fault. I’m just too self-conscious.

Thank you all for your supportive hating. It gives me hope for this mixed-up world.

Hey all,

I’m going to post this article about The Secret here because it is related to what Willem was writing about in his first blog post titled: The Village Philosopher, the New Ager, and the Rationalist.

http://carolynbaker.org/archives/the-secret-creating-a-culture-of-cheerfulness-as-rome-burns-by-carolyn-baker

Take care,

Curt

A great Comedian once said “You need haters. I need Haters. Everyone needs haters. The more haters you got means the more shit you are doing right. You got five haters? that’s not enough. You need fifty haters, minimum, before you can say you are the shit”.

Now back to your regularly scheduled hating…

oh yeah, The Secret blows too. I’ll gladly hate on Oprah.

Does that mean a hater needs haters too?

Yes, let’s all hate hate, hate haters, and hate hater-hating haters…

“Gooooood, heh heh heh, gooooood…I FEEL the HATE swelling within you…that’s right…take your [rabbit stick]…STRIKE me DOWN with it…and your journey to the [rewilding] side will be COMPLETE…”

love,
Palpatine

(photo taken at Saturday’s SHIFT)

To Willem.

I have always had a problem with the forms of spirituality or religions that uphold the principle that existance is a illusion that must be conquered through the mind.

Such a ideal automatically in my mind seems to be conceived by a highly authoritarian civilized being who has found a way to prey upon people’s beliefs or values by utilizing such a belief.

If all of existance is an illusion only to be conquered in the mind the slave finds a delusion to keep himself asleep peacefully at night ready to work for his masters in the morning. To me such beliefs are a extension of civilization itself.

I’m not sure if you’re referring to Buddhism when you say you have “a problem with the forms of spirituality or religions that uphold the principle that existance is a illusion”. But, having run across the misconception that Buddhism actually holds this view quite a bit recently, I’d like to address it.

I completely agree that this idea would be problematic, but I don’t think that it is an accurate representation of what Buddhist thought actually is proposing. It is a cursory reacton to a surface-level and simplistic reading (or, perhaps, rumor) of what Shakyamuni Buddha was actually noticing about the nature of the fabric of reality.

Buddhism does NOT hold that all is illusion at all:

“With all this talk of . . . the illusory nature of phenomenon we might conclude that ourselves, others, the world, and enlightenment are totally nonexistent. Such a conclusion is nihilistic and too extreme. Phenomenon do exist. It is their apparently concrete and indipendent manner of existence that is mistaken and must be rejected” (Intro to Tantra, Lama Yeshe).

The Buddha did not point out that all phenomenon were empty of existence, rather, he pointed out that they are empty of any inherent SELF-existence.

I believe this misconception that Buddhism holds all to be illusion stems quite naturally from the Buddhist notion that everything is inherently empty. However, emptiness and illusion are very different things.

Illusions, projections, delusions, cravings, aversions, concepts, and self-grasping all stem from the ego’s frantic need to find some kind of stability amidst the deeper intuitive knowledge it has that EVERYTHING is inherently connected to everything else in a huge web, the basis of which is emptiness, and therefore nothing has any inherent self-existence. The basis of ego is the frantic denial of this underlying interconnectedness. Buddhism is the path of understanding how ego coopts mind to distort the fundamental interconnectedness of all reality.

“Even though it is sometimes said that something is non-sexistent because it is like an illusion, a dream, or a reflection in a mirror, this is not philosophically correct. It is speaking loosely to say, ‘This phenomenon does not exist because it is an illusion. It is just one of my projections.’ In fact, the reverse is true. The phenomenon exists precicely because it exists as an illusion, which is inter-dependent. A reflection in a mirror is also interdependent; it exists because of the mirror.”

In other words, all phenomenon that arise, arise dependently from the field from which they arise, they don’t exist in and of themselves. So, the only illusion is that things actually exist as their own entities in the sense of being their own, self-originated energy.

We usually equate existence with indipendence - something exists only insofar as it is distinguishable from other things. This is true on a relative, gross-level plane.

To say that something exists simply means that it functions on a relative level. But when we look at the deepest components of the fabric of reality, down to the quantum level, there is no actual demarcation between any thing and anything else. All IS one. But nonduality does not mean nonexistence.

The tension between the relative and the absolute is the mysterious, creative field from which all phenomenon arise.

Seems that buddha and christ teach essentially from an anti-civ view - but ‘buddhism’ and ‘christianity’ serve to reinforce and strengthen civilization.
so they suck.

Before I said, “I don’t want to focus any energy on hating,” who does? But I must say I hate, Know-It-Alls, too, but don’t get me wrong, 'cause I do welcome them here.

Not sure if you’re referring to me as a know-it-all or not, but if you are, I’d like to say that I try to only write from my own experience and exploration. I don’t think I ramble on about topics I know nothing about. Having studied and practiced the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha for about four years now, I feel just fine sharing my insights into things I’ve actually thought about.

More irritating to me than know-it-alls are people who thrive on hating things they actually know nothing about. If I make claims in this forum that are based off of a simplistic assumption, incomplete understanding, or merely reactionary attitude towards a topic, I would be very grateful to anyone more knowledgeable who would take the time to show me a more complete view. This forum is only interesting to me insofar as people are excited about sharing knowledge and inspiration - anything else is a waste of electricity.

Willem,

You’re projecting.

What you dislike about Ken Wilbur, including his pathetically desperate “I’m so cool-looking” photograph, is what you dislike about yourself.

Neither Ken, nor you, nor i will ever truely experience the daily State of Nature of the Bushman’s life-long wholistic reality.

It’s way too late for any of us.

Ken, like every other anal-man raised in our anal-civilization, is trapped in an orally-fixated, anally-retentive neurotic psycho-dynamic.

Like you and i, Ken will never fully experience an existential intimacy with his own skin, his own breath, or nature itself for more than brief periods of time, and that only if he is very lucky.

Animist mentor/shaman, Zen masters, or Yogis can guide us to where we can temporarily be alive in the present moment, but we will always regress back to the oral and anal behavioral patterns inprinted upon us in childhood.

So don’t be so hard on Ken/yourself with unrealistic expectations of animism or the tao of zen.

We’re all “Bozzos on this Bus”.

Yes, I remember being seduced by those pediphiles of under-age consumerism.

The programming of our impressionable young minds with irrational neurotic preoccupations.

You are very wise to be so suspicious of anyone with ideas that claim to be rational.