Not to toot my own horn (alright, toot toot, why hide it), but I just totally had a personal breakthrough on Dunbar’s Number, the conception of a mean maximum for meaningful and high-functioning human social networks.
Check it out, yo:
http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/01/25/dumbing-down-dunbars-number/
If you want, you can post any reactions here. I almost don’t get any comments on my blog anyway. Sigh.
Hmm i have an account on wordpress (even a blog, duh!) but i cant seem to log in to post a comment when visiting your blog. Otherwise i’d be happy to leave you a comment every now and then. I really like your blog, but think its the type of posts that leave you thinking and wondering instead of leaving witty remarks and arguments and all that stuff. So… I think its great! and have loved reading many articles on it. Thanks for that!
I think I fixed the comment problem. Thanks so much for appreciating my work!
willem, i love the influx of posts over at the college. i keep coming back to find more and more things that really move me and stir my thoughts.
thanks for taking the comment posting security down a notch over there, too, as i always had trouble leaving comments, but don’t any longer.
i really loved the dunbar’s number post especially because it opened my eyes to the point that i had continued to miss – namely that the numbers serve to point out the maintenance involved in maintaining quality relationships.
Thanks Rix. I’ve had lots of personal insights lately for some reason. Perhaps thanks to Grandma Winter!
thanks for taking the comment posting security down a notch over there, too, as i always had trouble leaving comments, but don't any longer.
And thanks for your comments!
i really loved the dunbar's number post especially because it opened my eyes to the point that i had continued to miss -- namely that the numbers serve to point out the maintenance involved in maintaining quality relationships.
Yeah, and just two months ago I sat in a classroom at a high school and blathered on about that 150 number, like I understood it. Sigh. When it finally hit me, it hit me like a ton of bricks.
I also thought ‘Dumbing Down Dunbar’s Number’ worthy of Urban Scout style wordplay. I told him I probably should have just had him post it, as I probably channeled the Scout when I wrote it. 
[hr]
Admin note: fixed typo in code
well, you know, as someone of germanic descent, ya just can’t go wrong with alliteration!
Ran Prieur just abused Dunbar’s number again, in his essay "Beyond Civilized and Primitive’. He used the ‘organize in cells of 150 people each’ variation.
Sigh.
EDIT: I would complain directly to him, but today my passive-aggression apparently holds the reins.
Sigh.
I gave up on a direct rebuttal to that essay–it just seemed like each point got a little off track, and by the time you got even halfway down the page, we’d already wandered off into some arid scrubland on the other side of the mountains.
Seriously.
I get this feeling that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle and worldview just really bores Ran, and he wrote that essay (consciously or not) to intellectually justify how much it bores him.
Which I think accounts for 99% of the words written in any language anywhere (i.e., rationalizing one’s feelings on a subject), so I don’t mean to single him out. I’ve certainly done my share of that.
But really, I think a lot of these kinds of pontifications would get cut pretty short by actual, real experiences of the innovation, insight, and profound depths of the hunter-gatherer worldview. And the richness of deeply intimate and empathetic relationships with other-than-humans. Don’t you think? Maybe someday he’ll have a certain role-playing game he can try that will give him a peek.
Heh heh heh–so you wandered past me while I dreamt one night and overheard that aspiration, eh?
Willem,
When your Grandma (if you luckily had one like this) said, “Family comes first - family matters most,†you may not have known the profound human survival wisdom embedded in that statement. When she, or any other relative or friend, pestered you to attend that party, or that event, that you passed up because it seemed such a waste of time, now you know you (and your children, and your family) have paid for that in the wages of depression, exhaustion, isolation, disconnectedness.
You know, my Grandmother still says that to this day. And my Dad use to say it, too. But not to me anymore.
I agree with what you’re trying to get across with this statement, but on the other hand families can be pretty messed up (Of course, I know you realize this). And I’m just speaking from my experience here. At the age of 17 I moved in with my Grandparents and lived with them for close to six years. And alongside us lived my uncle and his family, too. We all lived on a farm that was set on 40 acres in the sand country of Northwest Wisconsin.
I’m 33 years old as I type this. And to this day I don’t know if I made the right choice back when I was 17 or not. I was a young man seeking some kind of security in a really messed up world. I thought I could find it in family, well, I was wrong. Anyway, I became SO depressed during that period of living with my Grandparents that I don’t know if I can find the words to illustrate how bad I felt. To this day I search for some kind of explanation as to why I felt the way I did at that young of age.
I just thought I would share this to kind of illustrate that I was in what would be considered by some here an ideal situation, but it was kind of a nightmare in alot of ways. Like I said before, I don’t know what kind spin to put on it yet.
Perhaps someday I will sit down and write about this experience, I don’t know. But I thought I’d throw that little bit of information out into the mix here. I’m not looking to disagree or debate about Willem’s Dunbar post. I’m just mostly processing my thoughts here.
Take care,
Curt
I had a big falling out with my family, and as it stands today I haven’t been to an extended family gathering in over six years. I have missed weddings, anniversaries, etc. The only type of family gathering I do attend is only with my parents and sister’s family. Most of my extended family on my mother’s side lives within 4 miles of me and I rarely ever talk to them. It’s really messed up.
Curt,
I felt for you when I read that. You seem like such a kind and wise person. Do you still feel depressed sometimes?
I’ve been struggling with depression too, especially ever since I had a direct-confrontation-style falling out with my dad (as opposed to his ordinary mind games/word dissection/criticism). I don’t know why, but I try (in vain) alternately to repair it or forget about the words we exchanged (just like I’ve always tried to pretend that things are happy between my parents and me). I don’t think that those couple of days of emotional torment and nightmares can be forgotten, however. I haven’t been the same since.
(Also not trying to detract from Dunbar’s Number … also processing my (Curt-inspired) thoughts… oops!)
BlueHeron,
Thank you for your note.
I felt for you when I read that. You seem like such a kind and wise person.
Thank you for your kind words.
Do you still feel depressed sometimes?
Actually, I don’t. Atleast nothing even close to the darkness I felt 7 or 8 years ago now. I use to get really depressed at this time of year. It’s funny because just the other day I was reflecting on how much better my life seems to be going.
After reading Willem’s posts about crying and grief I think the spirits may have helped me out, I don’t know. But boy did I sure cry during that dark period. Looking back I couldn’t believe I had that many tears in me. I was a mess. Someday I’m going to take the time and tell the story about this period in my life. I still don’t know how I made it through it.
I've been struggling with depression too, especially ever since I had a direct-confrontation-style falling out with my dad (as opposed to his ordinary mind games/word dissection/criticism). I don't know why, but I try (in vain) alternately to repair it or forget about the words we exchanged (just like I've always tried to pretend that things are happy between my parents and me). I don't think that those couple of days of emotional torment and nightmares can be forgotten, however. I haven't been the same since.
I’m really sorry to hear this.
(Also not trying to detract from Dunbar's Number ... also processing my (Curt-inspired) thoughts... oops!)
Yeah, same here. Sorry to take this thread away from its intended subject.
Take care,
Curt
Two things-
First of all I think I deserve the Nobel Peace Prize for this particular blog post. I consider it one of the best insights I’ve personally had. I of course will caress the Prize only long enough to give it to Robin Dunbar himself, as I think his easily misinterpretable but absolutely foundational theory rocks the casbah.
Second Thing-
Talking about implications of Dunbar’s Number in no way hijacks this thread. I think actually you’ve revealed the implications of Dunbar’s Number somewhat.
Whether we will or no, in health and wholeness Family counts as our greatest allies, and in domestication at times our worst enemy.
But the door of rewilding still has the word FAMILY written across the lintel. What do we do?
“But the door of rewilding still has the word FAMILY written across the lintel. What do we do?”
Adopt!
Adopt!
Hey Billy, I’d love to hear more about this. When have you seen adoption used to resuscitate family. How did it work? When did it work? Does it stick?
What does it mean to Adopt? A piece of paper at the courthouse? How does one Adopt somebody? What do you do?
Have you seen adoption fail? If so, why did it fail? And what defines failure in an adoptive family situation? Hmmm.
I really want to explore these things.
I have several questions about Dunbar’s number:
Does it only apply to uhh… human-to-human relationships… could it apply to human-to-animal/plant relationships, even to human-to-item ? Or perhaps some offspin or what not of it?
Does the number say 150 mean 150 strong relationships (but takes a lot of time to maintain), but lets say different groups of 20 strong, 30 semi-strong, 100 average (based on the amount of time put in with different relationships/people).
or 150 strong, x semi-strong, x amount normal/weak etc.?
I mean I guess its all dynamic but… just wondering different ways it could work? Perhaps my relationship the Dunbar’s number needs work =P
It only applies to human people, as I understand it. Robin Dunbar examined why certain high-functioning human groups peaked and split around a certain mean number.
2. Does the number say 150 mean 150 strong relationships (but takes a lot of time to maintain), but lets say different groups of 20 strong, 30 semi-strong, 100 average (based on the amount of time put in with different relationships/people).
I assume from this question I did a poor job of clarifying this in the article itself. 150 refers to how many intense, intimate, high-functioning relationships you can maintain in your network, an activity that requires high-amounts of social grooming to pull off.
Everything else follows from that…with the mean limit of 150, you can have any number of any level of intimacy, as long as you put in the work to pull it off. How does it break down, once you start investing less than required for a high-functioning and intimate relationship? I don’t know that it even works linearly. I see it as entirely possible that you’d have to work a certain amount before you get into someone’s in-group, and until you get there, they never really trust you. Once you get there, you’ve made it.
So the theory itself doesn’t talk so much about this part of it. I do know other folks have looked into this kind of thing, the different levels/investment in intimacy over an array of relationships. You might consider posting it here if the mood strikes you to google it.
I suppose that angle on the Dunbar’s Number issue doesn’t interest me as much the basic insight of fundamentally changing the orientation towards what we want from our relationships and family. But I don’t know, I have more to learn about all this too!
I’ve been gone for a few days.
Willem, what I’m referring to is adding to our family by adopting people into it that we feel a close connection to. This is regularly done in many cultures. A lot of people think of this as a token gesture to honor someone but I have seen and experienced situations where a grown adult person is adopted by someone in a ceremony and from that point on that person is a “relative” in every sense of the word. With the privileges and responsibilites. From what I’ve seen also it’s for better or worse as well. Not just as long as there’s no problems. Brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, nieces, nephews. It’s very old and widespread but for some reason mainstream N. America with it’s nuclear family mode of operating doesn’t do it.
As an examplethere is an eldery Lakota woman (who my wife and I call Grandma) who has several adopted brothers, in addition to adopted sons and daughters. To her they are every bit as much her relatives a her blood kin are and all of her kin treat them that way as well.
In my own life I have two step children that I have been a father to since they were very young and my wife and I are taking another child into our lives now because our “sister” can’t fulfill her mothering duties anymore. Both examples of “adoption”. This is a commitment that I’m talking about otherwise it doesn’t accomplish anything.
But many cultures extend these commitments to adopting adults too.
Cool! Exactly what I wanted to hear. Do you have any perspective on the difficulty of us modern folks adopting these traditional relationships?
I don’t even know how to adopt, in the way you mean. Does it just amount to a choice, and sticking with it?
I don’t understand fully.