Girls Gone Rewild

I share experiences with both Dandelion and HotSpring. You could say I buy into this culture while hating it quite literally: I hate victoria’s secret advertising, but wear victoria’s secret clothing. I have massive self esteem issues as a woman, and as a person. But like Hotspring I do not lock my doors, I walk alone, and have hitched rides with and offered rides to men and am not scared. I don’t think I’ve transcended anything, I think I’ve just used up all my scared on other other topics, so even if my actions are foolhardy I really don’t give a damn. Plus I think most of our fear is misplaced. I used to hang out with a lot tramps and bums and even let them sleep in my room and they were always respectful, generous, and kind. In contrast I’ve had some trouble with college guys and boyfriends. I encountered my first two sketchy situations with aggressive men both in the same night:

I was at a party and a drunk boy who was talking to me got very mad when I declined to go on a date with him. He said, “what? is it because I’m short?” He called me a bitch under his breath as I turned away but followed me around for the rest of the party acting very creepy and putting his arm around me and telling people I was his sister. It was difficult to shake him, everyone else knew him and thought it was all in fun… Later I left this party (I hadn’t been drinking at all, but had been eating chocolate covered expresso beans) and was riding my bike around in the night for fun. A car pulled up and asked my directions, but it was really an excuse to talk to me. This new boy asked me if I wanted to go to a party with him and I declined and kept on riding. I saw him again several blocks later following me. I pedaled very fast and turned down some side streets losing him and then went straight home. What a creepy night.

Then here is something else I wrote:

December 22nd, 2006

I went to a bar last night. During the holiday season everyone is back in town visiting their parents so going to the bar is big a reunion. A guy grabbed my ass. Surprisingly, this was the first time such a thing has ever happened to me. I found out later an entirely different guy grabbed my sister’s ass. Anyhow I was in shock a little bit and at a loss for how to respond. His two friends were laughing and egging me on,

“Punch him, I’ll give you five bucks,” the one said.
“Make it ten,” the other one added.
I briefly considered their proposal, I could have used ten bucks, but I have horrible coordination (when my sister and I give each other high fives we routinely miss each others hands) and like I said I was in shock, I lacked the rage required to hit hard, and I’d probably just glance off him making a fool of myself.
“He’s really drunk,” one of the friends said.
I’m not sure if this was an attempt at apology, or an offering up of an easy target.
I inched away closer to the protection of some of my male friends ordering drinks at the bar.
“You aren’t far enough away. He can still reach you,” offered one of the friends helpfully.
At this point my own friends became aware that I was being harassed in some manner and offered to stand behind and protect me while I ordered my drinks.
“Merry Christmas!” the one guy exclaimed as I moved away.
“Merry Christmas.” I muttered dryly.
When my male friends found out it was more than verbal harassment, and I had actually been physically assaulted. They got really angry. One even said, “That’s not cool,” and then we all went back upstairs.

December 23rd, 2006

My sister and I went to a Christmas brunch party at my boyfriend Nick’s mother’s house. He asked us how our night was. I said it was fun, but that we got our butts groped by some men. My sister asked, “Nick, will you beat them up and avenge our honor?” 

He said, “Uh, I don’t think so, maybe if they really sexually assaulted you.” She was only joking, but his answer bothered me a lot. What would it take to constitute a “real” sexual assault? How far would it have to go before someone would care or even notice? Anyhow, I didn’t press the issue because it would probably result into me bursting into tears at the dining room table.
It’s not that I want to depend on men to protect me. I’ve already formulated half a dozen plans in my head for the next time this happens so I won’t be caught off guard again. But do I want someone to care, to act like this isn’t an everyday occurrence. I know that, in fact, it is an everyday occurrence, but that doesn’t mean that it is okay.
I had a boyfriend once who would have been enraged. He would have beaten that guy up in a heartbeat if he had the chance. Unfortunately this is more illustrative of his violent temper and his own possessiveness of my body, than a desire to stop the sexual harassment of women. He insinuated I was a slut on numerous occasions. We once got into a big fight because he didn’t want me to have the same haircut that I had while with any other men. So I kept my hair short. He wouldn’t sleep on the bed that I had sex in with anyone else. I had to trade beds with my sister to appease him. He was inevitably jealous of all my exes, I ended up burning all my letters and photos that had anything to do with anyone I ever so much as kissed, hundreds of them. He would get hooked on things during sex that seemed harmless at first, like me wearing a hat, or the creative use of mirrors, but while it got old quickly for me, it seemed that he came to depend on them, that just plain me wasn’t enough. I had to be very careful not to walk around less than fully dressed in the house without the curtains fully drawn, lest some imaginary pervert across the road be able to ogle my body. Meanwhile he continued to ogle naked women on the internet. I could list many more things, but I’m sure you aren’t the least bit shocked by this so I’ll spare you.

                                              ****

Wish you were my friend way back when Urban Scout. Wish you lived close by now (I accidentally typed “loved close by” at first, and that’s what it’s really all about isn’t it?).

I think in additon to the support of friends a solution is self defense. The thing is I’ve never been interested in taking the time to learn self defense. It has to be presented to me in a way that catches my attention, not in a masculine guns and black belts sort of way, not a feminine pepper spray and groin kicks sort of way but in an intellectual way. And one of the ways that has caught my attention is Tom Brown and the way of the scout which connects to what Urban Scout said and really brings this back full circle to rewilding. Too bad I don’t really know anything about being a scout.

Thank you dandelion and all the others for all your thoughts and openness.

Yes, dandelion, words are slippery and we are often sloppy with them. My response to your post was not meant as a personal attack on your person. I do not really have as solidly formed an opinion of you as it may seem; my opinion is based only on your statements and I know they don’t represent the totality of who you are. But since we’re floating in cyberspace here I don’t have much else to go on (which leads me to wonder why I am choosing to be in cyberspace).

Probably what caused me to respond to your threaad was your choice of the word “We” in “We have to lock our doors at night, etc. etc.” No you do not speak for my viewpoint as a woman. What concerns me even more than this slip is the idea that there is no choice in how we live as women - we “have to” lock our doors, travel with others, etc. or pay the price. This simply is not true. We do have the choice.

Your statement looks to me like an attitude of victimization. I responded strongly to it because it represents a view that I’m very farmiliar with, having battled it myself. In my own experiences, identifying with this attitude left me drained, bitter, and pent-up; it infected my relationships and generally truncated my enjoyment of life.

I want to make a distinction here between feelings and attitudes. I am not taking issue here with feelings. Having feelings of fear, anger, and sadness are the natural and human responses to the sicknesses of our culture. But it is an entirely different animal alltogether to hold onto (identify with) these experiences to form an attitude of fear, anger, and sadness that one carries into other situations in life. I define an attitude as a preconceived (and therefore largely conceptual and therefore largely removed and therefore potentially inaccurate) stance, worldview, or approach to a new situation that colors the potential of that situation by affecting how we act, interact, and perceive what is really going on.

And yes, I do think that you (we, I, one) reinforces rape by fearing it. Just as I think that you further toxify your food by hating that you feel you have to avoid toxicity. I believe our attitudes very much influence not only our interactions and potentials, but the consciouseness and potentials for all other humans, male and female, and all other beings (human or not). This is just my opinion. If you have another, that is fine. But I hope it serves you well, and I hope that if it doesn’t you will see this and choose to abandon it.

The key point here I think is how creatively and proactively we choose to approach the problems of our lives/times/culture. I don’t think that a positive attitude alone makes one omnipotent. If it did, the drunk male who I convinced was really a good person inside would not have appeared in the first place. The attitude is one tool in influencing but not controlling potential. Verbal persuasion is another. When that fails, physical force is another tool. When I was attacked in a foreign country, I was unable to use the verbal tactics I used in Brooklyn, as I did not speak the language. But I was happy and surprised to see that my body knew what to do and defended me easily. I’m aware not every attack situation turns out in this way. Yet I still like to believe that if my attacker had suceeded in doing whatever he wanted to do to me, I would still (assuming I was alive) try to see him as a suffering human being acting from a deranged cultural model that certainly didn’t serve him. This may sound overly compassionate, but if it comes down to me choosing between a life of vulnerable openness or bitter safety, I’ll still choose the former. Because if I don’t I’m not fully living as a human.

I know this is easy for me to say, as I haven’t been raped or beaten. This is my luxury. But I do realize that because I am a human (and not just a woman), everything that can happen to a human can happen to me, and I accept the truth of this. The fact that it can happen and that this is true and I accept the fact of its possibility doesn’t make me resigned to it happening.

Is our culture basically mysoginistic or is it mysoginistic? To split hairs here we’d have to define culture (I’ll leave that to you or another discussion altogether) and how much we identify with our culture.

If we are so mired in hate and shame for our culture that we totally disidentify with it (while wearing Victoria’s Secret), then we could safely (but who wants to stay safe?) say that yes, our culture truly is mysoginistic. But if we own up to our responsibility as an inherent part, and therefore inherent force, in forming culture, then whether our culture is somewhat, mostly, or totally mysoginistic (or not at all!) definately has something to do with us and our own attitudes. So, since I feel I am basically not mysoginistic (though there are parts of me that are mysoginistic as well as sexist, racist, and classist), then my culture simply can’t be totally mysoginistic.

Our culture is already so disturbed, disjointed, disassociated. Does it really help for us to totally disidentify with our culture?

Who do we think we’re fooling?

We are culture. We must own it.

But I do want someone to care, to act like this isn’t an everyday occurrence. I know that, in fact, it is an everyday occurrence, but that doesn’t mean that it is okay.

Exactly. Never let it become normal. My friend who got chased by a car, then harrassed by the police, one of her best male-friends was like, “Oh come on. It wasn’t a big deal.”

I just can’t believe that kind of attitude. I can’t believe it.

I always feel saddened when I read the horror stories of women in distress. What sickens me is the typical male response/attitude of “it’s no big deal”. What bullshit. It is a big deal to be violated, end of story. I sympathize with the ladies’ anger with that attitude.

Personally, I beleive it is “the strong’s” duty to defend the defensless. I don’t stand for that "drunken asshole machismo"crap at the bars, on the street etc. Someone puts their hands on a person, male or female, in a way they don’t like around me, the perpetrator has to apologize or get punched. often it’s both. I have no tolerance for that sort of behavior.

Ladies, attitude is everything. If one presents themselves as someone not to be trifled with, and that even if the attacker “wins”(does what he pleases) he’ll be seriously wounded, they’ll think twice. Usually they are looking for someone weak, who won’t fight back. Pull your knife and give them the “this cold steel is about to reside in your guts and I’m crazy” look. they’ll think again. I guarentee it.

R

Hotsprings-
Sounds interesting. Could you go into more detail about the circumstances and how you responded when you talked to the drunk man and when you were attacked abroad?

The cougar thread of this conversation reminded me of attitudes towards snakes. There used to be a lot of rattlesnakes around here and the Indians said they did not get bitten often because they weren’t always trying to kill the snakes like the white settlers. While this doesn’t translate exactly to the rapist situation it suggests that the Indians 1) knew where the snakes would be and avoided those places or were careful in them 2) respected the power of the snake and perhaps the snake respected them in return. This is not to suggest that the Indians did not believe snakes were evil. Indeed the Seneca cosmology has a very strong conception of evil. You could say the same for rapists and treat them as snakes. Respect them as hotsprings suggested and/or avoid them as dandelion suggested.

As far as the “it’s no big deal” attitude. Yes that is very prevalent. Here is something else I wrote in which I address that and other problematic attitudes and I compare fighting abusive men to bringing down civilization:

December 24th, 2006

I had a very violent dream last night. I dreamt I was in high school and had a male friend who had just decided to start dressing like a woman. We were in the women’s bathroom when two macho types came in to beat him up. I picked up a pipe (pieces were just conveniently lying around on the floor, as is often the case with dreams). The two attackers took up pipes too, but mine was longest and so I was able to beat the attackers unconscious. I felt great afterwards, like a real hero, and we escaped to the school parking lot. We parted ways and headed to our respective cars to drive home but as my friend pulled out a student wearing a ski mask in another car followed him. I knew he was a friend of the first two attackers and that this was retaliation. His intention was to ram my friend’s car or run him off the road seriously injuring or killing him. Furthermore I knew I was in danger as well. I thought I won’t be safe to leave unless I’m in a bigger car, or surrounded by a lot of people, I have to get back inside. So I ran back into the school and went to the front office. I asked at the front desk if I could use the phone to call home. They said students weren’t allowed to make calls. I was started to explain the situation to a girl, another student, working behind the desk, but I knew that it was risqué because the administration and most of the student body would not be on the side of my friend and I. I was very upset and had a hard time getting the words out. Finally, she seemed as if she might be softening. I woke up gasping for air. The theme of the dream and my question is this: If we respond with violence what will prevent them from simply responding with greater violence?

I have another story. The volatile, jealous boyfriend I mentioned a while ago, Andrew was his name. I used to sometimes fight back to his abuses. Sometimes I hit him back. Sometimes I hit him first, (after unrelenting verbal assault, of course). I was going to say sometimes I destroyed his property, but I realized I couldn’t think of any time I actually went through with it. One time I threw his chocolate bar out the moving car window, but he pulled over and forced me to search for it in the brush until I found it.
In an instance of luck on his part the event that revealed the truth of our relationship to the public and eventually led to it’s dissolution didn’t portray Andrew at his cruelest. You see he shoved me in a petty argument and I fell [sic] off the bed hitting my head on the closet door and had to get stitches. Quite a technical difference, his supporters would point out, from actually hitting me in the face and causing me to have to get stitches.
I certainly don’t regret it now, but at the time fighting back was not to my favor. The result while I was still in the relationship/just out of it was that it allowed him to convince me that I was abusive too, we were both at fault. My therapists, my new boyfriends, even my counselor at the battered women’s shelter were quick to agree with this assessment. Back then, I was fooled into believing it. I didn’t have the confidence to disagree. Now I would say, if I’m abusive as well, then why in my life before or after Andrew have I never gotten into a fight, hit someone, threatened to smash their belongings, or verbally derided them in an uncontrollable rage? Only one woman, who runs a small homegrown spiritual development center in my town, was able to come out and say that while it takes two to tango, it was pretty much all his fault. I’ll admit I was wrong for not leaving, but given that I didn’t leave, I’ll never admit I was wrong for fighting back.
It is because of things like this that I am often hesitant now to talk in detail about my abusive relationship. On one hand I’m afraid someone will say, “if it was so bad, why didn’t you leave?” And I won’t have a really good reason and because of that I’ll feel embarrassed. On the other hand I’m worried that someone might say, (and they do say things like this, prepare to cringe) “what’s wrong with a little pornography?” or “well, it sounds like he really did love you.”

I wonder if this will ever apply to civilization. Certainly it applies now that we are in it, but I mean once we get out will our children and grandchildren say, “But Mommy if it was so bad why did it last so long? Why didn’t you leave earlier?” Or will they hear stories of television and chocolate cakes and say, “Really!? That doesn’t sound so bad at all.”

I guess the moral of the dream is that we have to be vigilant against counterattacks. We have to be smart. The great difference between my little dilemma in my dream and attacks on civilization is that when it comes to civilization not all fighting has to occur face to face and so if we can avoid being identified, we can avoid being caught. The moral of the second story is that when fighting back, we must hold strong. We can’t let anyone convince us that we part of the problem. Also that while it was personally dangerous for me to fight back with Andrew, this does not mean it was morally wrong. There is a difference between this story and civilization also. In the abusive relationship I had a choice to leave. With civilization we have no choice.

Male talking here (me). I apologize in advance if this sounds ranty or intrusive; it won’t offend me if you say so:

This kind of thing drives me nuts, the whole predation on women, the incredibly twisted system of resolving conflict that I believe bases itself on the psychology of abused children. I wouldn’t even call it childish, I would call it the behavior of enslaved and powerless children. Who cares who “started it”? Who cares who to blame? Sickness afflicts everyone involved, and you owe nobody anything except to save yourself so you can have a good life with people who truly care for you. It breaks my heart to hear these things happen, but it enrages me even more to hear “i don’t get the big deal…get over it…you played a part too”.

This kind of scenario inspires me to care more about the “philosophy” of rewilding, than any particular shelter building, hunting, or fire-making skill. How can we even think, with the voice of the counselors and helpers employed as agents of mother culture sneering in our ears about our complicity in all our woundedness?

Fine! So what? Let’s make lives worth living then. If tribal law indeed always points toward remedy rather than finding fault, then lets heal our lives and watch froma distance the mad thrashings and catcalling of those who refuse to extricate themselves from an enslaved morality.

I also work to heal my family bonds, and sometimes this can seem to work at cross purposes with muting the unhelpful voices, when families feel disinterested in any sincere healing. We just have to find the balance, I guess.

My two cents.

Look at the disclaimers and tone of self-dismissal that the men who have posted on this topic feel compelled to use when expressing their viewpoints:

“Male talking here (me). I apologize in advance if this sounds ranty or intrusive.”

“Maybe I sound like an ass.”

“I honestly can’t imagine what it must feel like to live as a woman. I really have no fucking idea.”

"I don’t want to ‘man it all up in here’, but . . . "

“I am a male. However . . .”

What is going on here? I think that these sheepish approaches to this conversation also reinforce and are a reflection of the polarized notion that men are basically predators and women are basically victims of men. If the women posting in the forum are seen as inherent victims of this culture and anything a male might say, then the male feels compelled a priori to apologize for his accidental birth as a male. This may be an attempt at sensitivity, but it is also very sad, because it says that men basically have no real right to partake in this conversation. In my mind, nothing could be farther from the truth. We must converse together. We need more than male’s sympathy or willingness to beat up other male predators. Why don’t you take up the discussion amongst yourselves? Why is this topic considered the exclusive property of women?

Let’s bypass these “sensitive” disclaimers. Since I don’t identify as a victim of culture, at least when responding to my comments, please don’t think that if you say something that i could choose to construe as typically male that I will somehow become so hurt and offended by it that i will internalize it and feel attacked by it. It might be more worthwhile for us to try to honestly look at and bring to the surface any mysoginistic feelings we have inside of us, and look at them openly. Me personally: I still base my value primarily on how attractive I do or don’t look, which is mysoginistic.

Penny Scout, I don’t have time at the moment to describe in more detail the situations in which I was approached violently. I do think there’s value in their telling to some extent but I am more interested in the broader discussion of how an individual woman’s attitude affects her experiences than the details of the assaults themselves. Thank you for your contributions and interest though.

I also want to point out that the title of this stream, “Girls Gone Rewild” rings like a porn promo. Surely this audience doesn’t depend only on the enticing possibility of engaging with wild horny wet hot girls to lure them into the discussion.

For a good article on how the porn industry has hijacked our primitive brain via our biochemical addictions to dopamine (the drug of the thrill of anticipating getting some rather than actually getting some) see:

http://www.reuniting.info/science/porn_addiction_lust_primitive_brain

Hotspring:

Some thoughts.

I respect that you feel safe enough and can broadly expand your boundaries to include american-male perspectives in potentially volatile contexts.

I still place a high value on respecting boundaries and making room for a place on this forum for different kinds of people who just need to talk for a while, without responses. I definitely want to voice my support for that.

My comfort with my own (rewilding) american maleness actually makes it possible for me to offer this up, without feeling embarrassed or ashamed about my biological status. So you have no need to worry about me, and I appreciate your firm feelings about the lack of “orginial sin” in the male gender.

I achieved this comfort because my good male friends and I do renew and refresh the ongoing converstation about how this culture specializes (although clearly not exclusively) in some forms of predation and fear-mongering towards women and children. Once men grow up, the pressure may let off a bit, but from listening and observing I see many women continue to have very simillar experiences.

I don’t have a victim/perpetrator paradigm of this whole situation. I do perceive predatory activity, as humans and entire human cultures have always predated on each other as much as anyone in the community of life. I find as much inspiration in the elegrance and grace of an elusive human prey, as I do in human predators.

I read a wonderful book, Gypsies, by Jan Voors, in which explores the lack of revenge ethcics or martial culture among the Rom. The had found a way to slip through the margins, foraging/gathering nomadically among the fields and towns of the word, and continue to do so where allowed, I imagine, much like a herd of deer.

Hope this clarifies my POV for ya.

Yes definitely men can and should post here without apologizing. Thank you for your contributions Willem and everyone else. Also I know the title sounds bad, it was meant to be ironic. Because of my past I actually have a particularly vile hatred of porn.

Hotspring- I just thought perhaps a little more of a detailed example might help us to understand “how an individual woman’s attitude affects her experiences”. Pehaps you can go into it briefly or give another example because I get confused when discussions are purely philosopical…that’s just me.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Hotspring, thank you for explaining some of your previous thoughts a little more. I would like to respond to some of them.

"We have to lock our doors at night, etc. etc." No you do not speak for my viewpoint as a woman.

Absolutely!

What concerns me even more than this slip is the idea that there is no choice in how we live as women - we "have to" lock our doors, travel with others, etc. or pay the price. This simply is not true. We do have the choice.

Again, you are correct, in my opinion. We do have a choice. We choose differently, and that is okay with me.

And yes, I do think that you (we, I, one) reinforces rape by fearing it. Just as I think that you further toxify your food by hating that you feel you have to avoid toxicity. I believe our attitudes very much influence not only our interactions and potentials, but the consciouseness and potentials for all other humans, male and female, and all other beings (human or not). This is just my opinion. If you have another, that is fine. But I hope it serves you well, and I hope that if it doesn't you will see this and choose to abandon it.

I don’t understand how my attitude of fearing rape and rapists and therefore engaging in avoidance behaviors reinforces rape and rapists. I do not decide to rape me, someone else does, everytime. And, I don’t understand how my fearing toxins and therefore engaging in avoidance behaviors reinforces toxins and toxification. I do not decide to toxify the planet, or my food, corporations do.

Yet I still like to believe that if my attacker had suceeded in doing whatever he wanted to do to me, I would still (assuming I was alive) try to see him as a suffering human being acting from a deranged cultural model that certainly didn't serve him. This may sound overly compassionate, but if it comes down to me choosing between a life of vulnerable openness or bitter safety, I'll still choose the former. Because if I don't I'm not fully living as a human.

To be honest, it does sound overly compassionate to me. People who rape humans and who rape this earth are sick, insane, and life-hating. I believe that humans are fully capable of not raping other people or the earth. I believe that compassion for rapists only pushes us further from the task at hand: to stop those who rape and toxify our bodies and our land. I do not believe that compassion will stop rapists.

Our culture is already so disturbed, disjointed, disassociated. Does it really help for us to totally disidentify with our culture?

Who do we think we’re fooling?

We are culture. We must own it.

I have been indoctrinated by this culture, but I desire to disempower the dominant culture within myself and as a whole, and I desire to form a new culture with particular people in a particular place. This is my life’s work. I own the indoctrinations, but I work to change them. I do not own this culture, but I do have a responsibility for taking it down, for myself, my family, my community, and the earth.

Urban Scout, you wrote:

I like the way you liken these civilized predators (rapists, molesters, abusers, cops, etc) to cougars.

Hm… I did call both cougars and rapists predators. From wikipedia: “In ecology, predation describes a biological interaction where a predator species kills and eats other organisms, known as prey.” Rapists are in some ways predators, as they often stalk, attack and overcome their prey, sometimes killing them. But, they are much different from cougars. Cougars and hawks, etc., are part of the cycle of life, killing and consuming their prey. The cougar becomes the beaver, the hawk becomes the cottontail. Rapists are never satisfied, and they are feeding an insane, life-hating need within themselves, rather than nourishing themselves and their land. The same perhaps could be said about other predators: corporate CEO’s and politicians raping the earth.

Like all predators, Having an awareness of them and acting accordingly to their behavioral patterns can give you protection against them, allowing one to not live in fear of them.

Indigenous peoples did not live in fear of cougar attacks. They knew where the cougars lived and moved. A skilled person could simply listen to the birds to know the whereabouts of any predator in the area. Simultaneously, I can’t imagine them hating the cougars either. The cougar lives its own life and continues to (as the hodenesone people might say) “follow its original instructions.” Humans on the other hand, can change. They get birthed out of plyable clay which the culture then shapes. I do not believe that evil exists in nature. I believe that only one evil exists, and that evil looks like Civilization.

Yes, awareness and knowledge of a cougar’s behavioral patterns gives me protection, as do awareness and knowledge of a rapist’s behavioral patterns, but often/sometimes rapists’ patterns are unknown, like the rabid coyote or raccoon, less predictable, and rapists aren’t in Peterson’s…there is no description. I fear cougars, but I don’t live in fear of them. It is a healthy fear of them when I am in their environment that reminds me to be aware and act accordingly. I also fear rapists, but I am not constantly living in fear of them. The fear does not permeate my every thought and action. That said, rapists are harder to identify and scarier to me, so I am often in fear of them and therefore alter my behaviors. If a cougar attacks me, then I have the chance to become a cougar. If a rapist attacks me, he violates me in an unnatural, toxic way. I don’t hate cougas, but I do hate rapists.

[quoteI honestly, sincerily, deep-heartedly, unabashidly hate this fucking culture. But for the sake of comparison, let’s say Cops. While I hate cops, and for the most part fear them, I don’t live in constant fear of them. I simply avoid them at all costs. I don’t go to rallies or protests. When I see them I generally turn the other way. I have nothing to hide; I have done nothing illegal. I simply can’t predict their behavior, and so I avoid them. My hatred for them has not furthered their oppression of me and others. They opress people, the act unaccording to any ethic I’ll ever understand, so I avoid them and reorganize my routines around them. I don’t live in constant fear, and I still fucking hate them and the systems them protect. [/quote]

A good example. I try hard to not live in total fear of this culture and its protectors and proponents , but I feel that my fear and hatred and avoidance of rapists and other toxic people and things is healthy for me giving our fucked up culture. I am all about protecting and being protected by in whatever way necessary my family, friends, community. I protect myself, and I will ask others to do the same. I hate that we need protection from insane, unnatural predators, but we do, so let’s do it up. (We being me and people who feel similarly.)

Am I a victim of assaulters/rapists/harrassers, of corporations, of politicians, of schooling, of this culture? Sure, I have been acted upon without the ability, at the time, to stop it from happening. Do I identify as a victim? Sure, maybe, whatever. All I know is that these systems of control need to end, and being a victim/survivor of them does not, in my opinion, make me any less powerful. Am I responsible for rape, toxifying earth, or domesticating children? No, but I am responsible, as a human who cares for her own life and the future of life on earth, to stop these systems and create anew how humans live together with each other and with the earth.

What is going on here?

I never introduced myself. I don’t plan to either. As for the ‘however’, I actually wrote more than I posted and deleted a goodly portion of the text because I didn’t feel comfortable sharing certain biographical elements. ‘However’ remained from a disclaimer of a different sort.

let it now read ‘I am a male, and the most I can offer to this discussion is reading suggestions - books written by people much older than I who know much more on the subject of the female than I and most likely much more than I ever could.’

You asked, I answered.

Sticken -

You say you posted and deleted a goodly portion of the text because you didn’t feel comfortable sharing certain biographical elements. ‘However’ remained from a disclaimer of a different sort.

That does pique the interest.

For Dandelion

We both seem to want the same thing (a culture where women are free to live without being raped in any way shape or form, mental, physical, emotional or spiritual). Yet we have not really come to much understanding. Where has this conversation led us, other than further into our own ideas of having the right perspective?

I want to clarify some of my ideas on the attitude of victimization.

I’m certainly not proposing that choosing not to have an attitude of victimization will guarantee that I will never be raped. And I think it’s absolutely natural to not want to be raped and to live in a way that minimizes that happening. For me, living in a way that minimizes that happening means choosing not so see myself as a victim. This isn’t just philosophy, it’s basic physics. I have noticed how the victim mentality actually very literally draws and attracts predatory energy (and therefore contributes to it) because of the power that is given to the predator in fearing it so. Exreme aversion is a power vaccuum that screams to be filled, just as intense clinging is a guarantee not to get what one so very much wants.

When I lived in an intentional community, I watched with fascination as one member whose identity was very much that of a victim after years of living with an alcoholic was given opportunity after oppurtunity to wake up and stop identifying in this way. The more she held on to this identity, the more situations arose in which she was shooken up, or “attacked.” Some of the attacks were total hallucinations on her part, merely situations that she chose to perceive as attacks because she so required being attacked to have her identity.

I think that an extreme hatred of culture is a similar transference of personal power onto something which is conveniently abstract and uncontrollable. I say conveniently becuase if we believe so firmly that that which we hate is not us, then we can more easily depend on the despicableness of that thing to know who we are (we are “not that”).

Just my opinions here.

I also have a male friend who was so traumatized from being beaten up in school as a child that he became a martial artist. Considering some of the things he has gone through, he has come out remarkably positive, but the majority of his conversation is centered around issues of fighting, combat, war, knives, women he knows who have been raped. His entire consciousness is dominated by this one theme. It’s not that it is unnatural to be concerned with self-preservation if you’ve been attacked. But if you let if fully define who you are, you have given it a lot of power, since it can consume most of your attention and make you hallucinate, believing that there is harm in situations where there might not be. It is sad to watch.

As for the part about being too compassionate, well . … . compassion is compassion. There’s no 50% compassion. Either you are empathetic or you aren’t. I’m only intellectually empathetic at this point, but it’s a start. Empathizing doesn’t mean a support of unacceptable behavior. It means acknowledging that a human being is suffering. If we were to look within the heart of a rapist, I am sure we would see a suffering human being. A suffering human being is a suffering human being is a suffering human being. Because that person has caused another to suffer doesn’t make their suffering less real. It may make it less valid in some people’s eyes, but I doubt that ignoring the source of the perpetrator’s suffering will help us to really heal our cultural wounds. Putting a perpetrator in a lesser-than box is certainly easier though - cleaner and more efficient, and requiring less of a demand on our own hearts.

Wow, good thread!

Gonna have to chip in some belated responses re: “Males posting to this thread as a sign that even men think men are evil bastards” topic. I’m not big on “etiquette” in the usual sense (ie, napkins, elbows, white after labor day, which way to put the toilet paper on the little roll thing…), but respect (esp for boundaries) is a very big thing for me. Whatever hesitancy I have about joining this thread (and I’d say this holds true for all the other guys who’ve posted) it’s not because we think men are evil bastards, it’s because there’s going to be some limitations to how well we understand the issues!

Having said that, I noticed a few things crop up:

1. self-defense - always a good idea, doesn’t need to be anything fancy and preferrably puts a lot of emphasis on avoidance;

2. acting crazy - you might be amazed at how well this works against guys, but you have to be really convincing!

3. this shouldn’t even need to be said, but no, harassment (of any sort) isn’t acceptable (esp on an everyday basis) and the sooner you can establish a reputation of not putting up with it the quicker it’ll stop (well, slow down to a crawl, anyway)

4. only go as far as you need to. his rights stop at your body but the law looks unfavorably upon completely disproportionate action (never let this stop you from going as far as you need to, just remember that once the bastard backs off, follow suit).

5. don’t let this become your whole life

Anyway, that’s my advice, granted it’s coming from a 6’ 5’’ long-haired crazy-looking guy that only worries about being out at night in really bad neighborhoods…

i have thought a lot about the “violence as protection” method of being a supportive male to my female friends (which includes my wife) and how the violence could help or hurt the situation.

here are two examples, both of which involve me thinking about violence but not following through–one because i didn’t need to and the second because i chose not too.

1. scared on the subway

while riding the subway in NYC, a large man of differing ethnicity became incoherently verbally violent. he started lumbering around, gesticulating and making racist comments. he didn’t appear to me to be the typical homeless subway ranter who are generally harmless in effect–saying weird shit very loudly but never really doing anything physical (other than wetting themselves). he seemed relatively lucid but not completely which made me think: he’s either slightly drunk or high. he’s not so bad off that he can’t walk up and down the aisle on the train, but he’s consumed enough to not know to shut his mouth. at this point, i was just assessing the potential for danger–which i always do with my over-analytical mind when riding the subway.

when he started making statements about how “white pussy” was the root of all evil and lumbering toward me and my wife, then i started getting myself ready. my wife has red hair, and often stands out even among other whities. she also has “some junk in her trunk” and is more likely to get hit on in harlem than midtown. knowing that, i was very afraid that my wife would be an easy object for this guy to target his “white pussy” rant towards. and not knowing how violent he was capable of being, i readied myself for whatever violence i might need to protect my wife.

i decided that if he should make a move toward her that i should just go straight for his nose. i figured that would be the easiest way to make him redirect his attention to himself long enough for me to get my wife to the door and be ready to jump out at the next stop.

fortunately, he was more drunk than i surmised, as he fell asleep standing up (right in front of us) holding on to the pole. my wife and i were able to get off at the next stop with no harm done other than some very elevated adrenaline levels in my blood stream. after a cigarette, i was fine.

interestingly enough, my wife wasn’t that worried about him. i can’t remember why. maybe she had just written him off as crazy.

2. the ass-grabbing customer

a friend of mine was a waitress in small town arkansas. while eating at her restaurant, i saw a local (read: redneck) grab her ass and make some lude comments at her.

i was angry and analytical and started thinking about how i could do something to show him that he doesn’t have the right to treat her like that: twist his fingers and hopefully break one, pop him in the nose, put a cigarette in his eye.

but then i started thinking about how my friend is going to have to live with the consequences of whatever i do. yeah, maybe i could fuck this guy over for a minute (or get beat up trying to, at least). but i’m just visiting. she lives here and works here. this guy is bound to come back around again, and who will defend my friend against him then–when he’s both horny and vengeful? i realized that my protective feelings would just make it worse for her. even if i worked here with her, i couldn’t be there for her at every turn. what if this guy decides to take his anger at being “put in his place” out on her? he could follow her home or find any number of ways to get her by herself. and what if he has friends?

i talked to my friend about it later, and she was glad that i hadn’t done anything for those very reasons. she knew that she could keep his aggression to a tolerable minimum by not feeding into it. and she knew that if she stayed just out of reach but as a visible object, he was likely to keep tipping her decently.

in the first example, the entire conflict could have ended in flight. i do enough damage to let me and my wife get away. it’s a big city, and we are really not likely to ever see this guy again. in the second, the conflict would not have ended, and my friend would have had to carry the conflict on without me. i would have just been fueling a fire that she was working to keep at bay.

it hurts me that most violence towards women–especially sexual or other intimacy-related violence–doesn’t come from strangers. i can’t think of a single female friend who has not been the victim of some kind of relationship violence–and most of them were outright raped or otherwise physically abused in the relationship, if not both.

as the husband of a rape victim, i have had to live through the effects of her traumas. she had to learn how to let me hold her. we had to work to make distinctions between me and her victimizer: like “when i’m angry it’s something we can talk about” or “when things get serious it doesn’t mean i’m going to hurt you.” we’ll never be past all of this. we’ve made great progress, but there will always be more to overcome.

willem, i liked that you brought up the concept of sickness. i think about the difference between treating a symptom and treating the real illness. there is a time for each, but only one will bring lasting relief. i think misogyny is very much a symptom of civilization–not that it is exclusive to the civ, but it definitely flows freely from the plethora of pathologies that civilization has given us.

How do we fix this thread? Or do only I see a lack of word wrap here? ack!

Fixed it.

Oh mi god. What a relief. Thanks.

Tell, Nick, I said “sounds good to me”.